4 Flyhalves, 2 Hookers: What Rassie's Squad Really Tells Us

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0:13 I'm Brendon Nel. With me as always, Nick Mallett and Gavin Rich. And we here after a brief absence because Rassie's gone and named a very, very interesting squad to tour Europe for the November test or now as

0:25 it's called the Nations Championship test against Italy, France, and Ireland. Three big tests and a very interesting team that he's named. Six six guys new caps. A couple of guys who aren't going to make it

0:38 Andre Esterhuizen Cheslin Kolbe, Andre Pollard. I'm trying to think there's one more. Deon Fourie and there's one more as well. Yeah, and even Edwill that's the other one.

0:47 So, those are the guys who are injured and out of the tour, but just a very interesting squad. Let's go let's go straight into Nick. Your thoughts about the the the the squad.

0:57 A very interesting one. Lots of talking points. >> Yeah, there are. And we can get through them. I think that the interesting one at four fly-halves and two hookers. That's

1:06 I mean it reminds me of the of the World Cup when they hauled in Pollard. And and and we only had one specialist hooker in 2023. But obviously there are I mean Jantjies is a guy who can play fly-half and fullback and wing. So, he has and so

1:20 can Sacha. Sacha has a has an ability to cover anywhere in the back back back field. So, it's really Armand and and Manie Libbok who are out and out fly-halves. From the hooking situation obviously Malcolm Marx covers that. But

1:33 interestingly you know, we had a just a a little WhatsApp chat and and Gavin was saying Bongi getting back in and and having a start with the Stormers coming off the bench. That'll be good news for Rassie. I mean he knows if he's fit

1:45 enough and if if he does well, he's able to call on him if if there any problems at hooker. I think it's a fantastic opportunity to give young guys touring experience with the box. I'm not sure how much game time they're

1:59 going to get? But, uh guys like Marco Muller, very young, as is Glynn himself. Um I read Donny O'Riley Norton's already had a bit of experience there. It's incredible how quickly people like Zach Zach Burton, Paul de Villiers, Cameron

2:14 Hanekom have already established themselves in the Springbok team, and they they're young guys anyway. They're all under 24. And it's for them to um to get an opportunity to go on a tour, it's it's obviously increasing the number of

2:28 players from I think from 19 to 24 is uh probably got 10 players in that, maybe more in that uh um age group. Then 24 to 28, you'll probably have 15, and then from 28 and older. So, you know, it spreads out the the age the age um

2:46 uh um well, just the the average age of the whole squad. And and I think for the future, you know, Rassie's still going on to uh 2031, so if not longer. And so,

2:57 he's obviously planning for the future with this tour, and giving guys opportunities who he's seen at the under 20 level have the personality and the character to to uh possibly make it uh in the

3:09 future in the box side. >> Gavin, you in here cuz the point that Nick makes there is is is very much something that you wrote this morning for supersport.com. Um is is the fact that it is looking beyond this World Cup

3:21 where a lot of people might think this squad might not have their favorite players as normally comes in with the Springbok squad, but this is very much a look towards the future as well. And that that raises some questions I

3:32 suppose about the Nations Championship. >> Yeah, well, firstly, let me just say, Brenden, I'm glad that you read my supersport.com pieces. Uh >> I'll be diving in. I'll be diving in straight after this, Gav.

3:42 >> Three three stories very quickly this morning. Um so, it might not be my my my finest work ever, but uh just just going to that article, um I'm just looking at um you know, how Rassie's treating this

3:55 tour cuz you know, obviously World Rugby want the Nations Championship to be taken seriously, and everybody to be buying into the the the idea that everybody's place chasing the Nations Championship title. And and I sort of

4:08 feel that maybe Rassie's got the the um the attitude that the big event of the year really has been and gone, and that was that was rugby's greatest rivalry. We beat the All Blacks, we're now moving on. I think he obviously wants to win

4:23 every game. Uh he wants to And if we win every game and New Zealand drop points, because remember how the Nations Championship works is you have the Southern Hemisphere log, and you have a Northern Hemisphere log. So,

4:34 um at the moment, South Africa and New Zealand are level pegging because they both got maximum points in their in their games at home. Uh I think New Zealand have marginally the easier

4:45 European league, but although not necessarily. And they always beat Wales by a big score at this time of the year when they go to Cardiff. So, so so I think that they're going to accumulate a lot of points on this tour. Whereas the

4:56 Springboks, uh after they play Italy, play against um they play against France in France, which is not not going to be easy at all. And obviously, Ireland will be smarting after we bullied them last year. So, uh you know, I I I just look

5:10 at the and I and then I ask the question, when are we going to play those young players? Um and you would think that um they would play us probably against Italy because France and and Ireland away are

5:21 are two incredibly tough games to to be blooded in. Uh and then you sort of think, well, shouldn't that be the game where Rassie's working on the cohesion of the team before they play against France the following week. So, you look

5:34 at all of those things, and then I sort of I just come to the conclusion that that that whilst Rassie's not sort of completely writing off the Nations Championship, I don't think that's the foremost thing in his mind. I think the

5:44 foremost thing in his mind is looking ahead, as you say, not just back not to next year's World Cup, because I'm not sure that um Malcolm Miller and those guys will be in the equation for next year, but but but for after that.

5:58 Well, I mean, Rassie's worked with over 50 players already this year, and and you add another the now to the squad that And you can only take 33 to a World Cup. Um Nick Nick just on I think let's stop with the flowers a bit cuz you

6:10 mentioned that's a bit and I think that's worth maybe pausing and talking about a bit. Uh Handre Pollard obviously still in the very much in the mix. His hamstring injury is obviously going to take him out of this tour and and for a

6:20 couple of weeks. But Jaden Hendrikse is is a a very interesting one for me. Killeen me, you can see his versatility and the Bulls have used him well at the back there with his pace. Uh but but I I made impresses every single time he

6:33 comes on. Against against Scarlets, he came on, scored two tries, basically won the game for the for the Stormers. I know it's a team game, but I mean he had a he had great little cameo there. The All Blacks just earlier this year, he

6:45 was very impressive. Um and and I sort of posed this question to Gavin yesterday when we were chatting just on on the phone is is um you you sort of wonder how long it's going to be before Siya Kolisi, who's

6:56 used to being now called across the world the best flower in the world, comparisons with Dan Carter. It's maybe not a bad thing to have a youngster like that push him cuz and he will push him just in the fact that there's somebody

7:08 else to talk about. >> Yeah, I know I totally agree with you. I've I've had a bit of time and and and I was at the Stormers camp just having a look at what they were doing and he was very impressive. You know, he's a

7:20 no-frills fly-off. He doesn't he doesn't make many mistakes. He's got great hands. He's got a very good kicking game. He's physical. He takes it to the line and he tackles puts his body on the line really well. Probably he needs a

7:35 little bit of work on communication on his ability you know, it comes it comes you know, when you're a young guy coming into a senior professional side, you don't want to start shouting your mouth off too much. But a fly-off has to talk

7:47 a lot, has to direct his back and his nine. And he has to demand the players outside him give him communication as well. So, he's still got a little bit to learn there. But wow, he's a good rugby player. He really is damn and a little

8:01 bit different from Siya Kolisi in that I probably think he would stick to a game plan. You know, a controlled game plan better than Sacha. Sacha has this ability to break a game up and and and beat three or four players

8:16 on his own. And and I think that a guy like Yachin, you know, he's more direct, he's more you know, he's he's certainly able to take it to the line. He's got very good feet. But but I think I think he's he's

8:31 a guy who will stick to a game plan probably better than than Sacha. And that's one thing that Sacha, we all know, is that Sacha needs to learn. He's got no individual weakness, Sacha, but his ability to stick within a game plan

8:44 is one that can be quite frustrating for him cuz sometimes, you know, he's kicking these up and unders that the team requires and he feels, "Hang on a second, you know, maybe you know, if things go well, I could actually break

8:54 the line here." It is difficult when you when you've got the speed and the talent and the strength that he has. But there's no doubt that that that Yachin Ahmed has got all-round skills. He really has.

9:05 He's got very, very good awareness, game awareness, and and a beautiful passing game. So So he's he's going to be, you know, someone who's the Stormers can really rest Sacha and put him into the side and

9:22 I think they can be confident that he's going to do a really good job of work. >> Yeah, just on the same point there. I I remember a couple of weeks ago watching one of the the New Zealand

9:32 podcast and them and them talking about how they've got these three flies in McKenzie, Barrett, and and Ruben Love. And they they're looking forward to seeing them all at the World Cup. But I mean, with these guys in there, Russ is

9:42 putting with Yachin and Du and Gelant and me and Nick commented on our WhatsApp chat yesterday, they got now six flies. But I want to actually take it even further cuz you add Damian Willemse. And you add Herschel Jantjies

9:53 who's not there as well. And and and outside chance even the Cheslin Kolbe who could probably get getting there as well. You probably Russ is spoiled with number 10s now. Yeah, we have the

10:04 as I said, it was six. I I I thought it was six as well because and you And in And fact, it's eight. In fact to be honest it's eight because well let's look at look at let's look at who Rassie has has played in the number 10 jersey.

10:17 And look we don't have any guarantee that Ya Keen Arendse going to play in the 10 jersey on this tour. And if he does play he'll probably come in another jersey because he might come in as an as an he's probably more likely to come in

10:26 as an impact player. But if you look at the guys that Rassie has played at at number 10, you go obviously Sacha, you go um um Handre Pollard, Manie Libbok. And then let's not forget that he also

10:38 played Jordan Hendrikse a few games. And Hendrikse returned to flyhalf for the Sharks after he's had like injury injury injury problems. But he's also sort of been in the mix in the past. I mean I think we a year or so ago we would have

10:51 said that he was the fifth flyhalf because obviously the other guy that we that that we sort of mentioning here is is Damian Willemse who played quite a bit at flyhalf um in the previous World Cup cycle before before the 2023 World

11:05 Cup. I can't remember him wearing the 10 since then, but when he has worn the 10 he's been he's been accomplished there. And and then you've got um as as you say you've got Ya Keen Arendse, you've got Rusi Mohoje. Um there's a there's a

11:18 whole sort of bucket load of of flyhalves there. Obviously like you know when you go to the World Cup you're only going to have three. Um and I would think that Rassie's banking on on on Pollard being fit for that World Cup. So

11:30 so I think we know who the three flyhalves will be if everybody's fit. But it is interesting that Rassie's sort of building this incredibly big pool of flyhalves at the moment. But it also speaks to another point. I mean now now

11:41 Jake White um has a couple of times come out and and and and in opposition to Rassie and saying that he gives caps away. Um and I remember in 2006 Jake going under

11:53 strength to to uh England and Ireland and they got a real walloping in in in in Dublin. I remember I was there that night. And but there was a guy who made his debut that night uh called Frans Steyn. He was only 19. And Jake backed

12:07 him because he had potential he had a potential. I would actually argue that what Rassie's sitting with at the moment is that he doesn't just have one Frans Steyn. He has several Frans Steyns. I think that's the difference between now

12:19 and that era. I think we're in an era now where there are so many You know You know who I think is unlucky to miss out in the Springbok tour? If you are going to go for young players, admittedly there are a lot of loose forwards about,

12:30 but Mat I don't know if I'm if I'm I don't I think he's been absolutely outstanding for the Sharks for the last three games. Admittedly I'm saying only three games, and that would speak to Jake's point that you should play more

12:42 for more more games than that before you play for the Springboks. I was speaking to somebody the other day and saying it It must be difficult being one of these sort of prodigy players. In other words, like somebody like

12:52 Warrick Gelant, we're already sort of expecting him to be this this world great, and he's only 19. That puts huge pressure on you. We talk about Lukhanyo and and it's not like when he's going to be a great, it's sort of almost like No,

13:04 sorry, if he's going to be a great, it's when he's going to be a great. And it and it and it It must It must sort of I don't know, it would be interesting being in their in their feet in their shoes. Marcus Malherbe is actually an

13:15 excellent example because, you know, there's so much hype around that guy, and yet he's only played a couple of He's played one full game, and he's played a couple of minutes for the Stormers. He's only played a little bit

13:27 of senior rugby, and yet there's already this huge expectation, and he doesn't done And in the old days we used to talk about an apprenticeship. Um but he hasn't really sort of done his full apprenticeship yet, and and and

13:39 he's already a Bok. But that to me is an indication that we are now in an era where there's not just one Frans Steyn, there's there's several of them. >> You could also mention Damian de Allende even played flyhalf in Japan last

13:51 season, which was And I remember asking him >> Warrick Gelant. >> Yeah. >> Warrick Gelant. >> Yeah.

13:56 >> Yeah, there's another one. >> Warrick Gelant. There's >> There's another >> Yeah. >> Although I must say when I did ask Deodatus about his flyhalf, he just

14:03 laughed. He said no, he doesn't really want to play there, which I'm sure Rassie won't play him there. But in an emergency, you never know. >> Um >> I think let's move across the hooking

14:12 position cuz Nick, you mentioned that as well. That That's a very interesting one. Earlier this year we asked uh Rassie about the backup hooker to Malcolm Marx. And and he did say Jan Hendrik Visser

14:23 was the guy they hoping to get through there. Johan Grobbelaar is in and out of the team. Malcolm van Staaden is a re-traded hooker. Deon Ferreira as well.

14:31 He's played there this year. Andre Hugo Venter doesn't seem to get that much of a run and I I've said to Gav before I'm not sure how much that's got to do with the fact that he's dating Rassie's daughter. I'm sure

14:44 Rassie doesn't want to be seen as as that. I'm sure that it'll still be a rugby decision. But just just I mean usually takes three hookers to the World Cup. And Rassie in the past has has has

14:55 taken a hybrid guy as the third guy that Deon Ferreira or the Malcolm van Staaden. But I mean it's pretty it's quite obvious by this selection that if if Gavin's not right about Bongi coming in at some point that that Jan

15:09 Hendrik Visser is the second guy. And and if Bongi does come in then that also says a lot about the the the hooking position. Just the depth that we've got there. >> Well well I'm very happy to see Jan

15:21 Hendrik Visser being picked as a hooker and not as a hybrid loose head cuz we've got great loose heads out there. I mean if we're leaving one Venter behind you know that means that you know Inktoks and Schoonies and Steven

15:32 Kitshoff and Ox and Schalk we've got three really dynamic loose heads. So just getting him as a as a scrummaging replica to Marx and he can be because he's very quick around the field. He's

15:48 you know he's good over the ball stealing the ball and and he's a great ball carrier and he needs to get more experience with scrummaging and throwing the ball in. And uh >> [snorts and clears throat]

15:57 >> he could be a a remarkable hooker in the same vein as as as Malcolm Marx. It is strange though not having a third hooker. It's a specialist position rather like scrum off and we saw what happened to the Stormers last weekend

16:11 when three three hookers went off and I mean the an extraordinary situation where Deon Ferreira and the two hookers who were selected and were all injured. And suddenly you get you know you get uncontested scrums and

16:23 you get a lineout that's very flaky because you're getting a guy checking it in who does it perhaps for 10 minutes a week but but is it's not his specialty. And when you think how many penalties we get from our scrummaging, it'll be

16:36 damaging to the Springboks, you know, not you know, if we had to go to uncontested scrums and it'll also you know, our driving maul is a very very strong point in our game and to get a driving maul going you need to catch

16:46 the ball in two hands. You know, your jumper needs it in two hands to deliver it properly to the next player. So you you can't have a shambolic lineout either. So it is a very very important position. Now I'm

16:58 not saying anything about Malcolm Marx and I haven't spent enough time watching him play in that position, but they obviously have and they think he could you know, finish off a game quite easily.

17:09 But my view is if one of those two Marx or Jan Hendrik Venter gets injured, I can't see them you know, not bringing in a specialist hooker and and and going the way we did in 20 23 with Deon Fourie. I think I think

17:24 you've got a guy in Bongi who's been there and done it and if he's fit enough and strong enough and you know, he's playing decent rugby. I think I think he'd be invaluable. I

17:34 think he's going to be invaluable for the Stormers but but also for the Box as well. >> Yeah, yeah, I mean Rassie did mention Bongi's name several times during the greatest

17:43 rivalry tour and I mean there was that mystery which we now know why that he's disappeared this season. [clears throat] Yeah, it's it's just so very interesting that he's he's now suddenly the next guy.

17:55 Yeah, well when we did hear what was going on, we were always just wondering why the Sharks just weren't honest about it in the beginning because remember we were wondering why he wasn't there for the All Blacks and we'd heard cuz I had

18:05 heard that he was training really hard. I mean apparently he is really motivated and I think that John Plumtree when he was still the coach sparked Bongi a bit. He told me about a conversation he had with Bongi. Bongi

18:18 came to him and and and he said that he wants to carry on playing deep into his 30s. And Plum said to him, "If you're going to do that, you've got to change your whole attitude. You You You're just not professional Well, not He didn't say

18:30 you're not professional enough, but when you get into your 30s cuz he mentioned Jesse Kriel." He said like Jesse Kriel can carry on playing till he's 38, possibly, because he's got such an incredible sort of

18:41 conditioning effort, let's say. I mean, I think Jesse Kriel spends all his spare time in the gym or training. I don't think he has He has any other life sometimes. I think he just does that. Um

18:52 but but that's what you have to do when you're in your 30s. You You have to do that. And And Plum did have that conversation. He told me that he had that problem. I'm not sure if JP had a similar conversation with him when

19:02 he took over, but um apparently Bongi did go to work on his conditioning and he apparently he has trimmed down. I saw Dobbo's quote yesterday that that that that he's he's he's he looks

19:15 well conditioned, but he just hasn't trained. And obviously he hasn't trained because the Sharks didn't want him in their training sessions. So, he's just got to get get get back get back onto the field and and have a bit of game

19:26 time, which he will on Saturday, and hopefully he'll be the old Bongi and and maybe become one of those guys who's evergreen. It's a little bit more difficult though when you when you're a hooker and and you're carrying that kind

19:38 of weight, I think, than somebody like Deon Fourie who's who's who's a who's a freak of mate. I mean, Victor Matfield Victor Matfield could carry on playing until he was 50, probably, because he's just so athletic. I mean, and he's

19:50 probably still fit now. I don't know. I haven't spoken to Victor about his training regime anymore, but he's probably still doing mountain bike races and and and things like that. But Bongi doesn't strike me as that type of guy.

19:59 So, he's got he's got a bit of work to do on his conditioning. Oh, he's had a bit of work to do on his conditioning. Apparently, he's done so. And I'm looking forward to seeing him on Saturday cuz it'll be the first time

20:09 I've seen him in about a year. And the last time I saw him, he didn't look very well conditioned. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, just just on Jesse, I think Jesse will probably when he's 60 probably be

20:18 still fitter than most Springboks. >> [laughter] >> Having bumped into him in the gym, I've watched him work. He's He's an incredible athlete, yeah. Nick, I I think that we The only other

20:29 thing I really want to ask before we just ask about the two in general and the games in general is is the one guy I thought was I was very happy to see cuz I think he's worked incredibly hard is Sebastian de

20:40 Klerk. And with the moment, I mean, we talk about four loose forwards and that, but South Africa has an incredible amount of wingers at the moment and top-class wingers who score score great tries. So, for guy like Nick to come

20:51 through, often injury come back, work hard, he's certainly a guy who works incredibly hard to get there. Now, I'm very glad I just wanted to get your take on him. >> Yeah, I've watched him play and he's

21:01 he's a massive mess His work rate is fantastic, you know, he gets around the field. He doesn't stay on his wing. He's looking for work inside and outside the fly-half. You know, he gets around to support the winger and the fullback on

21:13 the other side of the field a lot. He's got explosive pace, brave, tackles well, good under the high balls. You know, he he really has deserved his his his selection. I'm not sure again how much time he's going to

21:27 get on the field because we do have such Even though Cheslin's not going, we've got you know, we've got such good wingers, you know, Van der Merwe's been in the wings all the time waiting for the opportunity. Every time he plays, he

21:38 seems to score a try. So, we've still got Ethan Hooker who can play center and wing and probably can play fullback as well. You know, he's a really good player. It's great that he has an opportunity.

21:49 You know, we'll see how many of these these young players that Well, he's not that young. He's 26, but but um you know, he's he's it's his initial tour. So, is it to get him used to the whole culture, Springbok culture, you know, is

22:03 looking ahead or is Rassie genuinely thinking, "Okay, you're going to get a start against France or against Ireland?" Or you know, I'll be you know, I'll be really interested in seeing that. Before we go

22:15 though, I think we need to look and just chat about the locks. One of the areas that I think there are there have been question marks. What happened to Cobus Wiese and why wasn't he selected? I mean, he he was in

22:26 the squad and he was doing a good job, but in my opinion as a lock, as a front of liner, he's got a lot of physicality. And and uh for him to be left out, I think was uh a surprise. And uh Salmaan Moerat is a great player, but it's more

22:39 of a selection on reputation really, rather than on present form, cuz he's only played, you know, 40-odd minutes for La Rochelle. So, he's back in the mix, uh which is which is great, and he has had experience with the Springboks.

22:52 But he hasn't had a lot of game time on the field. So, first tour we're going without Etzebeth, without Eben Etzebeth, I mean, that's uh that's quite a big Even though we've got experience in Lood de Jager, Mostert, um and uh and uh you

23:05 know, obviously Salmaan himself, if he is fit and ready to go. But and you got Pieter-Steph du Toit who's who's uh listed as a um as a sort of hybrid flank and lock as well, I see as well. So, I don't think we've got weaknesses at

23:18 lock, but I just thought uh you know, without having someone like Etzebeth there, you know, it would it would have been I would have thought that Cobus would have been in with a good chance to go, Cobus Wiese.

23:29 >> Yeah, I was going to bring you in there as well and just ask you that the other question I was going to ask you on that I mean, you're welcome to go obviously add to Nick is uh your one of your your favorite lines is uh maybe we'll see a

23:40 lot more of Damian Willemse at 12 in this tour as well. Yeah, well, maybe. Um Yeah, but who's going to play fullback then? Yeah, well.

23:51 >> There's got Fassi there. >> Yeah, he's now the Yeah, I just I just feels like the Damian Yeah, true. It's it just feels like it just feels like Damian's sort of nailed that 15 now and that that that's where he should play

24:03 for the time being. I do I do like obviously do like him at 12, but he is an option there. It would be nice to see him and and who knows? Yeah, I I am a little bit concerned about lock. Um I'm sort of still wondering if if Rassie's

24:14 going to possibly make an approach to the guy in Toulon that who played for the Stormers team. David David Ribbans David Ribbans Yeah, I'm I'm still wondering I'm still I'm still waiting waiting waiting for

24:25 that to happen because it just feels like we're a little bit I'm very pleased by the way that the that Corne Kriel's coming to the Stormers because I I do rate that guy. I think he's a really good player. He's not for now, but but

24:36 for the future. And I think that there is a tendency for for Sharks players to come to the Stormers to actually see their careers take off a bit again. So, I think he's I think he's probably making a good move. Um he was probably

24:47 playing behind Etzebeth at at the Sharks. Not that not that that means that you're not going to get game time for the Sharks. But, yeah, so yeah, that I I

24:56 Look, look, you know the one thing that that I was going to say just cuz I mentioned Jake earlier and and talking about choosing young players and giving jerseys away. Um one of the benefits of

25:06 having a coach appointed long term, which Rassie is, um he's not like a Nicks era where you sort of lived cheek by jowl. Basically, sort of you you have one bad test and you get thrown out the door. You speak

25:18 about ticket prices and and suddenly you're not the Springbok coach anymore. Right, Rassie's Rassie's Rassie's there till 2031. And even if SA Rugby didn't want that, the public would always make sure that

25:31 Rassie stays. He's just become so popular. I mean, you know, they they they doctor suck the pop songs around around his name now. I mean, I was at the cricket yesterday and people were singing about Rassie. Um

25:42 it's just good to have a a long-term appointment because then he's vested in succession succession planning. Like when Jake was the coach in 2006, there was quite a lot of brinkmanship from from Jake in those days. And we already

25:56 knew we already had stories about him speaking to England and and possibly going somewhere else after 2007. Now we've got a coach we know is nailed down till 2031, which is 6 years away. And it is there

26:09 is a big benefit for South African rugby and for the Springboks to have a guy who is looking at succession planning and is looking at the future, which is which is very clear from from this particular selection.

26:22 >> Yeah. If If you If you wanted to see Damian Willemse to go to center, we're going to have to see the Damian de Allende go as the hybrid player to flank like Etzebeth was, you know? So, when if Rassie moves moves our Dougs there, then

26:37 we might see let's see the other Damian moved inside center. No, no. I wouldn't do that. And I tell you he'd be very be very good at it as well. He's a big, strong, physical guy. He'd be able to do driving mauls just as well as Etzebeth

26:50 in my opinion. And not Etzebeth, I beg your pardon. Etzebeth, yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Guys, yeah, I think Nick just maybe just talk about the three tests the different challenges they pose. This ended up like that. We'll

27:01 talk more in detail, obviously, before each test on Talking Boks. But, yeah, just a general overview of your your the three tests. >> Yeah. Quickly on Italy, you know, that a

27:11 probably their most disappointing uh north southern hemisphere tour. They didn't do well and got smashed in the last game against against Australia, got well beaten by New Zealand. So, you know, they've got they're at home are a

27:25 different beast. They will try they will be you know, tough But, you know, I think we can get through that with a 30-points differential. I think we really can get our five points there without without a

27:36 problem. And then and then of course we come to the really tough tough games. Ireland always, you know, as Rassie has put out there is that they've won four out of the last six or something like that. Even though we did them a lot of

27:48 psychological damage last year in November with that great scrummaging performance. And they haven't got better front rows since then. So, there's no reason why we can't do that again, particularly with the front rows we've

27:58 selected for this trip. They could be under pressure in scrums, but again it all depends on how the referees decide to referee the scrums. And going to France, they've had a lot of injuries as well. And and if I may say so, I think

28:09 that the France are desperate for a tighthead, you know, they don't have a tighthead who can handle any of the three looseheads that we've selected. I mean, they really don't. If if if we get on the front foot in the

28:20 scrums, which we which we should be able to do against both of those teams, we can then control the pace of the game, control the set pieces, decide whether you know, whether we're going to play through the hands or whether we're going

28:31 to put it in the air. That's ideal for us. So, I see us winning all three games, I really do and and uh and I think you know, four tries against France and four tries against Ireland, that might be a little bit tricky. So,

28:44 I'm just a a bit worried that I like that New Zealand because of the way they play, will probably score four or five tries against against Scotland and England and Wales and it might be just on the bonus

28:58 point that they go through as first. But then we've got to say to ourselves, you know, listen, is that is that the end of the world? It's not really the end of the world in my opinion. It's more about as Rassie's done is giving more players

29:10 an opportunity. He did it against Australia. We were admittedly we were very disappointed about that performance. 42 points down and then we only came back into it when they had all their players sent off. So, so, you

29:22 know, we perhaps the strength in depth isn't quite there unless we have the certain amount of experience on the field. So, a lot to learn in this tour and uh some really challenging games ahead.

29:33 Um but it'll be lovely to come out on top, it really would. I'd like to see to see the Southern Hemisphere win the first game, second best, third best, fourth best and then down there Fiji hopefully win the fifth and if Japan

29:46 can't beat Wales in that, it's their problem. Gav, you can go. >> Well, uh yeah. Well, I mean I I can't really add to what Nick's saying. Um I I'm not sure that I expect us to win all the games. I've I've just

29:58 I just got to feel I'm a little bit worried about our our depth of luck as you were saying and and yeah, you'll have to forgive me now cuz it's just he's a name that I'm sort of preoccupied with but I didn't actually

30:09 bother to look in the squad. I mean, I'm assuming that Ben Jason Dixon still has his concussion problems and is not in the squad. I mean, he hasn't played for the Stormers. So, so there's there's another guy we're sort of missing in a

30:20 way. Although he wasn't a front line player, he was always a the guy that sort of came on and he could play he could play flank or lock. So, we're missing that kind of player and and I do sort of find it quite confounding that

30:32 Coetzee Visa isn't there. You know, it's cuz he's also one of those players who Okay, I mean, I think he played one game at number eight for the Springboks, didn't he? And he he never really he never really

30:43 impressed me there. It was an odd selection. But, you know, he has played loose forward for the for the for the Well, he used to play loose forward for the Stormers as well. I would feel more comfortable if

30:53 if he was if he was actually on the tour, to be honest. And yeah, I yeah, I'm I'm I'm confident for the tour from a Springbok point of view, but maybe not quite as much as as Nick as.

31:04 I think in the modern rugby you do get four tries these days. I mean, if you know, when do you have those really sort of tight games where where where I mean, we look, we didn't have have bonus points

31:15 in the RGR series, obviously. It was about about just winning. So, I never I never really took notice of it then, but and I am correct cuz I'm trying to think back to July. I am correct that four

31:26 tries is the bonus points, not you have to score three more tries. I actually I actually much prefer that system. I much prefer the system of you have to have three more tries than the opposition. Because if you win 80 points

31:37 to 28, and the losing team gets a bonus point, I just think that's absolutely ridiculous. >> Yeah. Now, the the only thing I can really add to you guys is is that what makes it our

31:48 our schedule a bit tougher, I suppose, in the ways is the fact that France and Ireland are probably playing for that first place on the northern hemisphere side. And they both lost a game. So, they might see it a bit differently in

32:00 terms of the log and that. I don't think Rassie will see it so much of that. And France normally play a very attacking game, so I I would expect it to be four tries there. It's going to be an intriguing tour.

32:10 As you said, Nick, Menoncello and and the Italians are going to certainly be up for it. So, it's going to be wonderful to watch. And we'll obviously be back. So, guys, yeah, go go enjoy the cricket. Nick, enjoy

32:21 your day there at the beach as well. And I'll try and get some sun sun sunshine here by the beach by me. But, those watching, thanks for watching. Leave us your comments as always. And if you haven't already, smash that

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