This Was The Springboks' Most Dominant Win - And They Could Have Won By More!

0:02 Talking Boks, proudly driven by Toyota. When there's tough to be done, there's the new generation Hilux. We're back with very little sleep. I don't think anybody in South Africa's had much sleep after that performance. A late night win for the Springboks in Baltimore. Rugby's greatest rivalry champions uh 3-1 test series win. We are of course Talking Boks proudly driven by Toyota. I'm Brenden Nel. With me as always is Nick Mallett and Gavin Rich and and and guys, gez, what a performance. A dominant probably the most dominant performance by the Springboks in in this in this um series. And we and and they're kind of going to come to you first. Uh I I I sent Gav a message about

0:45 just before halftime, bit frustrated because in that first half we had the dominance. We were in their 22 a number of times and we weren't getting the points. who are making stupid silly mistakes and I said to him in halftime, you know, this team should be further ahead because I was a bit frustrated about that. But in the second half, they turned it on. Couple of big calls that went the box way. Um, two involving Cam Royard uh that certainly turned the game as well and it could have been different, but just your take on the game. Yeah. Uh f [clears throat] firstly I I agree it was uh it was the most dominant performance and and I and I feel that's as close as New Zealand could have come to us 14 points or whatever the difference was. Um it felt as though we were on the brink of of knocking this

1:30 wall down. And I reckon had we got had we gone in to halime even at 177 instead of 1714 you know the try they scored just before Halime gave them that momentum. and they've done it this whole series is we've had periods of dominance but haven't managed to take our opportunities because we've created so many and uh they then create get one opportunity and score and it gives them a new lease of life but listen if you take the whole uh uh if you take the the match as a whole it always I was more comfortable in this game than I was in any other one that I was watching I felt that the box it was just a question um of how much we were going to win by um interesting stats you know we post contact meters 525 against 362 um and and off very similar carries. I

2:18 think it was 142 carries for the box and 137 for New Zealand. So our our physicality and taking the ball through contact was outstanding. And it wasn't just the forwards doing it. You know, we had great carriers in um Visa obviously who was brilliant in this game. I thought Marx also carried well. Um and then when he came on Esther Hazen and Cameron Hanukkah were good but in the backline I mean the the the performance of Hooker Arna Villimsa Daller in particular who was absolutely outstanding all over the field able to do the soft touches change direction hold people off get us going forward um you know whenever we were going down a blind alley pass it to him and he would

3:03 get us on the front foot and um and then Monberg who who varied his game and his defense defense was wonderful. So, so much good about the spring performance and uh but still these guys ended up by scoring four tries against us. So, um key moments, key key moments. I thought the Cameron Hanukum tackle on Morby when he knocked the ball forward in Orange, so it went the whole length of the field to score was almost a 14-point turnaround. Um you know, they looked at that a lot to see if it was early tackle, which it wasn't. As I saw it, you know, the ball was was in his hands as he's lunging to get him. So that was a clear call and there's no doubt Roy was offside you know that he was halfway down that rack. So if if they had um you know penalized or given a yellow card or

3:49 whatever it was um uh down the other end of the field against a springach uh it would have been that would have been a travesty of justice you know I thought they got those decisions correct. Um, just in terms of the All Blacks, better in the scrums, uh, I think it was only 2-1 penalty count to us or something like that. Maybe we got a free kick as well, but not the dominance that we've had all the way through. And, uh, in the line arts, Messi from both teams for for the Springboks, probably because of Dion Fere coming on and not being used to, um, you know, throwing in the line arts as much as Marks. Uh, but the All Blacks, we contested really well against them as well and managed to sneak a couple. So similar possession we played with much more ball passed more uh and

4:35 created more opportunities uh but we and scored six tries. I mean you can't you know you pick the bones of that and you've got to be very happy with that that result. Gabe, were you as comfortable during the game? Yeah, I was. Look, I I've always said that there there's going to be one blowout in favor of the box and I wouldn't say it's a blowout. It wasn't 43-10 like it was in Wellington last year. But um you know I just sort of felt that this game the box we're going to be too good. So I was comfortable before the game. In fact if you read my superport.com preview you would notice I said a 15point win by the box and uh on another pad you know bet um thing uh I

5:15 actually said 20 by to the box and and I was convinced it would be one of those games. But then when I saw the All Black team and how how Dave Renie had freshened up whereas we hadn't really freshened up, I was a little bit concerned about that. I just thought that they had more more balance to their team this week. Um and with with with Via on the Ben on sorry on the flank instead of at lock and I just thought that they had a bulkier pack and and Nick's right. They were better in the scrum. They were better at at some aspects of the game that they they haven't been good at. But what was um what was really pleasing yesterday was the way the box sort of um you know everybody was saying have they shelved Tony ball. I mean we we made I think it was was it 11 line breaks in the game. It was almost like we should nickname um Curtly Orens the ghost because I think that that's what the All Blacks thought

6:03 that they were playing against a ghost because he just get went through just about every time. I mean he was he was he was a he was fantastic actually. I mean, he scored the try and that that sort of grabbed headlines probably somewhere, but um there was there were other things he did. I think he he came out of line in that first try that the All Blacks scored. So, that might have been his one mistake in the game. Otherwise, it was it was a brilliant performance from him. A brilliant performance I thought from Dam Damian Villimsa coming back in it in at the back. And uh Sacha didn't have his greatest game because he he kicked the one ball long just before Halime and another one that was went straight into into touch. And like it was a bit of a sort of mixed show from him, but you can you can still see with with Sacha that he's he's a guy regardless of his form,

6:46 he's he's a guy that the that engages the opposing defenses. I mean, they have to they have to focus on him because if they don't, he's going to be through and score. In fact, it's it's probably quite startling in the way that that Damian sorry that that Sacha Fineberg and Gomezu went went this entire series and he played all four games and never actually scored a try because there were number of times when he sort of threatened to and we know he's got very good tryc scoring ability for a for a fly halfoff but but otherwise a resound a resounding performance a great way for South Africa to end the series not completely unexpected. Remember the All Blacks have suffered injuries and there were players that that were play that were missing as well. But I I think generally that and I think Nick was sort of saying that just now although although I was more comfortable in some of the other games I thought that game in I never thought we were going to lose that game in Cape Town once once we went

7:35 ahead early. I I do think that in the end there's probably 15 points difference between these sides. I think yesterday was a reflection of the relative strength as they are now. That's not saying that I think the box are overwhelming favorites next year. Um it's going to be 50/50 regardless if we play them in a quarterfinal or whatever. But um I thought the box were very good yesterday. Nick, I want to bring you in here because I mean what Gavin says is the the 15 points difference between the sides. I felt just last night it could actually been a lot more. It felt like one of those games that they were threatening to break out the whole time as Gav said the blowout. Um but I suppose in in bigger terms as Gav says the World Cup quarterfinal is a one-off game. That that'll be a tough game anyway. But at this moment, we spoke a

8:17 bit in the last part about France being about the only other side. Um the just how good is this box side and and and what do they have to watch out for in the next year given given all the strengths that they have? Where where where does Rassie have to look I suppose going ahead into this next game against Australia? We'll play a lot of new guys, but just from the these performances in these four tests. Yeah, it's it's uh I mean we would have been really happy with 3-1 at the beginning of the series. I would have been I mean all the people who said four 4-0 I mean they're dreaming. I thought they would I didn't think they were going to win the first one. I thought they would might maybe sneak sneak the second or the third, but um but 3-1 is is a really positive performance and um when you when you consider he kept unusually for Rassie, he really kept the the body of that squad together and

9:06 really only moved players in and out because of injuries or because of weather conditions. We changed the front row to start and stuff, but it was it was a group of 23 to 30 players that he didn't move away from [snorts] and uh which is unlike the nation's cup selection. So, so um what did we learn? We learned that um uh that older players was a big question mark which we spoke about before this series. Do we think that we've got the players in their mid30s? Are they going to be able to last in in a in a tournament like this which is really tough uh for four times against the All Blacks over four weekends is harder in my opinion than the last four games in world in the World Cup. So uh and and you know the guys came through with flying colors. You know always plays his 50 50 odd minutes. Kiss uh uh we had playing really well. Um Marks uh outstanding. Uh

10:01 the the two centers just the backbone of that of that defensive backline. Um we still had a couple of the new boys, you know, you had Monet Funberg, you had Ethan Hooker coming in, we had poor old Cheslin getting injured. So but he was he's a a stalwick who's always going to be there. So very few of the guys who um uh were involved in the in the alignment camps and that Rassie backed in that first test um let themselves down. They you know in fact they they confirmed that they they still you know they they really do deserve another opportunity. So so I think we and also we've got the strength in depth. We do know that when we get a snaman back and and Liaga starts you know playing more rugby I mean you know that then we're going to be sitting with four worldass locks as

10:49 opposed to um you know two and a half at the moment. So it's with with Lu I'm saying two and a half because L hasn't played for a while and Kubis hasn't got many caps. So when you're looking at what we've got uh I mean we we're in a very very good position at the moment but a year is a long time. It really is a long time. I just want to preface what I'm saying by by um reminding everyone that Rassie and this coaching staff have had this team for 100 test matches. Rassie's been involved for 100 test matches. He really has got understands um what is required to win test matches and he's got a massive support base from not only the players but also from the whole country. Dave Ren's come in, he's

11:33 had 13 games now. He's lost three away from home. he's still got a lot of time to bed down this all black team and um and he will have leed I think listen I don't think you're going to beat South Africa by just by just playing um uh movement rugby I think he he understands that they're going to have to front up physically which I didn't think they did you know when they were those postc contact meters are pretty critical you know when you suddenly getting a visa making 10 meters when none of their players their player will make 20 or 30 if makes a line break but any ball carrier from their team into contact was smashed immediately whereas our guys kept on getting momentum I mean even if it was 2 m or 1 meter or 5 m but we kept on getting momentum so if they don't have players you can stop our momentum

12:22 they won't win that quarterfinal against us Gav just to follow on from Nick's point there I mean the all blacks will get better and we know that they they aren't the finished product as well and Dave Renie I know there will be some people in New Zealand will be unhappy with the three losses, but they've certainly shown themselves that they they can get better and there is an improvement arc for them ahead of this the World Cup as well. Uh but but yeah, some of their selections, if you think you said earlier that they were more balanced, to me it felt like a team almost for for a one-off test rather than a team for the World Cup. um in terms of bringing guys like Bowden Barrett back in, Richie Moanga, those type of guys and and the guys I thought that maybe it's easy to look back in retrospect now, but the guys for them who probably could have come in a bit earlier, Peter Lai in the two tests he started looked very good.

13:13 Ethan Blackader was everywhere yesterday. Not always legally, but he was everywhere and I thought he could have been in in that test series a bit earlier. So maybe a couple of things that that Dave Renie can refine as well. just your thoughts on how good they can get in the next year. Well, just we well just you you've actually queued up my what I wanted to do which was to actually clarify why I said that I think the Springboks are 15 points better than the All Blacks. The one thing that the All Blacks have done and on in every single game on this tour is that they've scored the last try. They've scored the last try in every game. In three of those games it was a sort of consol maybe not in Cape Town. There were still three minutes to go.

13:50 the game was still on the line. Although it would they could only have got a draw at that point. But but certainly these last two tests uh you know cuz some people might talk about the tri count. I think in the end it was 17 to the All Blacks and 14 to the Springboks. But uh there is context to to those tries that were conceded by the box and and three of them were were were late consolation tries and and of course in the Ellis Park we were down to 13 men at the end and I think they scored two tries in in in that period when we're down to 13. So, so the the All Blacks um to to me to um I do think the All Blacks have improved obviously. Um but to me, uh there is a bit of a a false gloss to to some of the scores in the games. Um if we'd won by 12 points last week, I think that would have been more of a more of a sort of an app summation of the game.

14:37 And the 33-19 that we were leading going into the last minutes in Cape Town, probably probably the same story. Uh what what what what what I think we we've got to mention when we talk about the All Blacks improving or the All Blacks being being making progress is that 30phase 32 phase try that they scored just before Halime yesterday. I mean that was just phenomenal how they kept that ball going and how patient they were and the skill levels right at the end just as they as they rounded it off. I don't think there is a team in the world get that can than replicate that kind of sublime skill level that that that they do. Um, in many ways that that that 32phase um, buildup reminded me of and I don't know if you guys will remember it but in the World Cup in Japan, World Cup final

15:23 in Japan in 2019, England attacked us just before Halime and they went for it hammer and tongs and there was a I don't know if it was 32 phases but it was a phenomenally long attack and the Springboks resisted it and because they resisted it it was it almost a lift. It was I remember sitting in the press box thinking the box are going to win because because of them resisting that and I was watching that that that attack and I was thinking to myself if the All Blacks score here it could swing the momentum of the game and it it didn't really I mean the box came out in the second half and Arna I think made two early breaks early in that second half and it was clear that the Bucks were going to were going to win. They were they were really all over all over the All Blacks. Yes, I mean Renie Renie does have have a lot of I mean he's only been in there for a for a clutch of tests.

16:11 He's got lots of um of opportunity to build. He will get some cattle back. I mean hopefully well from their point of view, not from ours, but hopefully they'll get Brody Retallic back. They'll get um uh I was going to say Bowden Scott Barrett back. There's a couple but they're not going to I don't know if there's there's any any front row people that they can get back unless they call people back from retirement like uh Yeah. Okay. To Martin. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. True. Okay. So, they can get him back, but but it's it's it's it's um Yeah, it is that is that is their big their big worry is that they've got to front the box physically and at the moment they're not really showing signs of doing that.

16:51 They come very poor second when it comes to the power game. And as you guys have both said, we we actually left points on the table yesterday and we probably left points on the table in some of the other games as well. A lot of people talk about the box scramble and that the All Blacks had opportunities, but over the course of the series, the Bucks probably have have wasted more scoring opportunities than the All Blacks have. As always on this on after the game, we pick Toyota's toughest player. When you want reliability, you want toughness, you want something as reliable and tough as the the new the brand new Hilux uh Toyota's flagship Bucky there. So guys, lots of candidates again, dominant spring performance. Uh the two guys who came up in my mind or three guys uh Damian Denda uh Yasper Visa was

17:36 everywhere. He was on all the stats as well and Monberg who had man of the match performance and really took his chances and what an emotional interview afterwards from him as well. Nick I'll come to you first. Who's your toughest player for for the weekend? Not again. It's so tough with it's so tough to pick the toughest player because I mean our whole game plan is is is around being tough, being physical, getting stuck in uh not giving up um you know being dependable and when and which is exactly what I suppose the Hilux does as well. So it's I think the three guys you've mentioned I think Damon Dallander was fantastic under the high ball as well as was Ethan Hooker. Um you know was you know for his fourth game or in a row just still carried tackled um uh you

18:23 know got a charge down was it was everywhere. You can't look past Marks for these sort of things either scored another try and was getting involved in turnovers and it was it was such a a a good performance. I would have if you have to distill it probably between Daller and Thunderberg in my view. I know Yasper carried a lot and his stats were really good, but um just in terms of impact on the game, I felt that Daller and Monberg were outstanding. Yeah, actually I'm I'm I'm probably not going to be able to cuz um there just were there just were so many. Just on Monour Funberg, I enjoyed his I enjoyed his emotion afterwards. And you might remember Brenden, we did a we did a thing. It was it was before Nick's well before Nick was doing this with us. We

19:10 one of the one of the very first um uh sort of interviews we did was was at uh I think at Cape Town what was at Cape Town Stadium after the box won by six points there in 2024 and I remember whilst we were talking I I happened to notice I think there was a capping ceremony going on with the with the box and I remember spotting Monet Fenberg out of the corner of my eyes. He had walked out obviously because he he was so emotional and he was so tearful sort of st sit stand standing on the side of this of the stand. So a guy who obviously really and I know you know having been at his at his interviews during during the tour um this last tour um clearly a guy who just gives everything for the box. So, you know, I'm very tempted just to give it to him just because we haven't really given it to a scrum half and and and when you

19:56 sort of say that a toughest player is a scrum half, that's almost like quite a sort of unique unique thing. Um, I thought I thought Etsth was was was really good again. I mean, he's done four weeks in a row now. Um, actually five games in a row because he played against Argentina two weeks before the series started and and he's like got a new lease on life. He looks young again. I mean, he's he's he's been brilliant. Jasper Visa again as you say, Damian Dendi and Damian Villimsa who um who didn't he who didn't play out the whole game but you know he was very good under the high ball under the high ball as well and and and just you know just um had the the the New Zealanders guessing whenever he touched the ball in attack as well. So so but Monenburgg would be my would would be my my take.

20:43 I'm happy with that. I don't think we're going to give it to Scrumov very often. Not with the Springboks forwards domination. So um let's give it to Mo. What a performance by him. A battler of note and yeah certainly deserved it and that emotion afterwards says a lot about him as well. The character of the guy as well. So that's our our toughest box for the week. Um difficult choice but in the end I think one deserves it. And uh let's move on. Just want to have a quick word about Baltimore. It looked like a fantastic uh experience. Didn't know there were so many South Africans in America. I think we we was a bit surprised about that and the tailgating there. I had some clips sent to me by old friend of ours, Rion Balmer, who used to be a journalist here in South

21:22 Africa, was at the game as well. Just looked like a fabulous occasion and not many all black supporters in that. And you could hear it when they sang the anthems, Nick. Um, just is is it I mean, I know it's a financial success and they've made so much money out of this game and I suppose when the Springboks win like that, you can't say it's a failure, but um I I think Gavin's point from last week as well, it still holds true. I mean, we would love to have seen that trophy lifted in in South Africa. And going forward, I don't know. Do you think they should have a rethink about that? We should I I'm not saying get rid of the overseas games, but maybe structure it the way that the team that hosts the series should lift the trophy in their country or the team who win, should I say, in the country that host. It's it's the um it's the old argument of um I suppose um professionalism and and having to get

22:11 money and having I mean I've listened to I've listened to the explanation um that next year you know there there's no there isn't a um a rugby championship a full rugby championship that whole world rugby season is a difficult one financially so both New Zealand and South Africa are looking to have a buffer of finance to carry them through that until the next cycle begins. Um and in 20 um when we go will it be 20 2030 or something like that when we go and play them there. Uh is that is there going to be a four match series and where are we going to play um are we going to play three in New Zealand and then one more in uh you know in America you because it'll be just before the the 2031 World Cup. So um so there there's a it might be this might be the sort of

23:00 new professionalism you know the players just have to accept that um your home series is is three at home and and one uh one sort of gala event um elsewhere. I I was also very surprised at seeing the number of Springboks jerseys that it uh I mean people must have come from Canada and Mexico and down south everyone coming to watch the Springboks play because 68,000 or whatever they were and um and it was a sea of green and and and you didn't hear the all black all black chant much in the game at all. So and when we scored there was a lot more um noise. um we haven't chatted about that quite destabilizing moment when the comms the refs and the touch judges lost their comms. I mean those those are the sort of things issues that can happen when you're away from a proper rugby professional rugby

23:51 environment. And uh so Baltimore was a great was I think I think it it it it it worked from a financial point of view but there is no question that um it would be preferable to have played that in South Africa and to have had handed the trophy over in South Africa. And when I say it would be preferable it would be pref preferable for our fans. You know we're playing you know the guys absolutely adore the Springboks. So you win a series like that. It' be wonderful if Sia Khesi and the team could have done that at whether it was Durban or Port Elizabeth or whatever wherever they would have played that fourth test. That would have been great for the fans. Um I know that financially finance drives professional sport and this was

24:35 obviously a money maker that they couldn't afford to miss out on. Interesting that both teams both teams um you know supported it. Gav, just on on the comms thing, that's not the first time it happened. It happened in the the Island New Zealand game as well, also in America. Uh, same sort of comms issues there. Uh, certainly something they're going to have to brush up on before that. And the other thing I just want while we talking about these type of things, I I've always find it bizarre that we have to have an American national anthem even though they they got nothing to do with the event either. So, um, I suppose we should just be happy we didn't have a jet flyover or something like that. But, uh, just your thoughts on all that?

25:13 Well, with with respect to the national anthem singer of of the the Star Spangled Banner, I actually wasn't sure if it was actually the the New Zealand I mean, I I was I was actually a bit flammox. I mean, sorry, the the the American anthem because it didn't come across it like that to me. I don't know, maybe there's something wrong with my TV, but it didn't sound like it didn't sound like that. And I was with I was with some people and two people came over to to watch and and actually that's my point. Now I mentioned two people came over to watch like after having been at the games for the last well we went to myself and you went to to all the games. We went to all the the French the club games. Um having been there it was it was incredibly flat yesterday for me just sitting at home alone and waiting and I wanted I wanted people to come and watch with me. I thought well maybe I can get some friends around and and that they can come and watch the game. After all, it is the decider of

26:04 the series. And I promise you, for love of I couldn't get people that people say, "No, no, it's too late. We're going to go to sleep and I want to be at home because it's cold and like, you know, um the series is over. We we we we won it in South Africa and we can't lose the series and it so so to me like you know obviously for the people who live in America and I've got a lot of American well South African friends who live in America who me as well just like you Brennan who who sort of told me they were going to the game and then I got a stream of photographs before the game and then after the game on my cell phone. Um, but I I just sort of felt that, you know, if we made such a big fuss about this RGR series that that the climax of the series being played away from South Africa was just just just not not a good idea. And and and I I I I

26:51 agree with Nick that there's obviously the money imperative, the economic imperative that comes in, but then as I've said before, sometimes I I think that you need to put what's good for the sport. sometimes what's good for the sport and and and money are are separate things. But I I I just don't understand and and I have written quite a few columns on this and back in when I was writing a business day column. I don't understand why we couldn't play the All Blacks as a standalone game at another time. I mean Nick just has just mentioned that um next year is a sort of fellow year when it comes to international rugby out of the World Cup. in in 2023, we played that game against New Zealand to Twickenham. I'm sure we could get a just as many people go to and make just as much money out of out of going to staging a game in

27:40 Baltimore in the buildup to next year's World Cup. And and as Nick says, it's um couple of years from now, we we're playing in America. So, you know, the closer you get to that event, maybe you you you want to play in America. Just an interesting one when we talk about 2030 for the All Blacks. Um they've got a line series the year before that. Um in 20129 they've got the British and Irish lines coming which is always a huge series as well. So so they they are looking forward to a bit of a windfall over those those two years. I mean we didn't get the windfall that we would have expected from the Lions because they came here during co in fact that was a that was a horrible series in in in many ways um just because it was played in front of no one and and uh and I'm sure that that contributed to the rather sort of mean atmosphere that sort

28:26 of pervaded over that series but um yeah now look Brennon to to sum it up I say yes take the game to America but don't make it part of of your ser I mean you could they take British football games to to to America, but they don't take Premier League games to America, games that really matter. They wouldn't play the FA Cup final in America. And if they and if they did, then it would be wrong because there's people obviously who support their teams in Britain who'd want to go to Wembley for Finals Day. And America is quite a long way further away than than Wembley. So, so that's really my concern. Ju just on that, Nick, I mean Gavin's 100% right. I don't know if you want to add anything to that because uh I mean even even the NFL played a game in

29:09 Australia this week but it was a game that meant nothing. There's talk now of Six Nations games going to going to America as well which I think uh irked quite a lot of people up north as well. I suppose this whole expansion to America thing given that their MLR franchises a number of them have closed down and they're struggling financially sometimes it feels like we're chasing a bit of fool's gold here in terms of trying to be every other sport is is is chasing American uh money and and and and at the end of the day the the 2031 World Cup is going to be competing with the women's football world cup at exactly the same time in America as well. you know, Brenden, it's it's been it's interesting to see football's tried to get into the American market for a long time and, you know, there are some, you know, reasonable uh football teams over there. Um, and America has a side that plays in the World Cup, etc., but it's

30:02 never taken on. You know, their their whole um whole year is defined by seasons and their sporting seasons. It's the baseball season, it is the NFL season, and it is the uh basketball season. And uh you know, their sport is you know, they call it world champions or whatever they do because you know, they they have all these professional and and it that is so followed by the American public that to try and break in with another sport is is incredibly a team sport. I mean, not golf or tennis or whatever, but but a team sport like rugby is very very difficult. I'd be very interested to see how many Americans were at Baltimore. How many American citizens, not not ex-s South Africans or not ex New Zealanders or ex British or Irish or whatever it might

30:50 be, you know, you you have a lot of um you know, people who come from rugby backgrounds who probably went to that game because you've got the two best teams in the world playing and just out of interest, you'd want to go and watch it. I mean, I, as I said, I think a few weeks ago, if Brazil were playing, say, Germany, top two teams at the time, I'd go and watch that soccer game if it was in South Africa. But, but [clears throat] in order to, if you think that you're trying to turn the minds of Americans to become supportive of rugby, [clears throat] I don't think it's going to work. I really don't think it's going to work. And uh and and so you talk about chasing fool's gold and it is that you know you're obviously wanting to make money out of this Rugby World Cup and taking it to America. I think it's going to depend on how many

31:36 people travel from their home countries, excuse me, to America uh to support their teams as opposed to how many Americans who go to to to support the rugby. I really think it's it's it's going to depend on that. Gav, just to turn back to the box, but just to add to Nick's comment, and I know you can obviously comment on this as well. I'm not sure if it's 100% true, but somebody told me yesterday that it wasn't even broadcast on American uh TV networks, was only on Rugby Pass on on their TV. So, that just shows you also the level and it was the opening weekend of NFL this weekend as well. So, that's why they played one of the reasons they played in Baltimore because a lot of the other stadiums were were taken up by NFL games. But coming back to this box team, I want to go back to something that CIA said maybe a week ago and and now in the

32:25 context of these four games um is somebody asked him in the press conference uh I think it was a lady from Daily Maverick say made a statement that last week in at Suetto was the best rugby they played and sort of just smiled and he said no we haven't played our best rugby yet. I think we we've mentioned it at times in this and Nick you can come in afterwards as well that we all waiting for this the team to hit their straps and we thought maybe last night there were signs it could be that um on on on the same sort of sort of you know scene when do you think we're going to get a box team that's going to hit their straps or how close are they to be becoming that team we want them to be and what's the danger of obviously falling off the other edge as we've spoken about before. Okay, just okay just before I answer about the blocks

33:13 just just to go back to the American thing. There was another game that was played yesterday. It wasn't we weren't the only international game. I happened to be it was a incredibly long day yesterday as you know. So I was sitting there watching England play test cricket and they it was a very one-sided game. But then I came across um Japan against the USA and I think it's called the Pacific Nations Cup and Japan threshed the US. I mean they gave them a really good hiding. Look, I didn't watch the whole game. Maybe the US came back in the end, but I mean when I stopped watching it, there was about a 40point difference. So, so that's the other thing about America is that that they've got a lot of work to do if they want to sort of become comp and Americans will support if if they've got like a competitive team. We saw it at the FIFA World Cup. They had a they had a competitive team. I know they were helped by their president in in the one

34:02 game, but um it was a there is there is that as well. that's also a stumbling block for America. Um, going to the box, uh, I, yeah, I don't know if that's the same comment that I heard I heard that one, but I also heard C say at some point last week in the buildup to Suetto, what might even have been afterward after Suetto where he said that our best performance and maybe that's that's Se being typically magnanimous because Se is a very sort of humble person and and sometimes he sort of goes out of his way to be humble and it was the game that he didn't play in. But he did say that he felt that the game that the box were the most dominant in the series was actually the first test when Paul Devils actually played

34:45 flank and he was he he wasn't back back yet from injury. He said that that game we did everything right. We just didn't we just didn't round off. All our plans worked. And to some extent that's true. I mean, we could So, so I look back on the series and I think to myself, um, if if I traded it again, would I sort of like say, okay, I hope the box I mean, because Alex Low from the Times, who we spoke to straight after that that Joeberg test, remember, he's a neutral. So, and he was delighted that the that the box had lost that game because he didn't really I mean, you got the impression from Alex that he he he didn't expect the All Blacks to to really front again and he and he said, "This will make it interesting. it'll keep the series alive until that very last game in Baltimore. And and I look back and I and I heard Rassie say last night. Rassie said um I don't know if it was in the buildup on the game or

35:35 afterwards. He said that um we uh you know we we we we can't afford to do this at the World Cup because we we lost that game in Jober. So that would be a quarterfinal that we lose. Um it wouldn't be a quarterfinal actually be around a 16 game that we lose. Um but uh where I would actually sort of correct Rassie and I think he knows this himself. I don't need to correct him but by losing in Joberg the box effectively put themselves onto a knock knockout footing. If they'd won in Joberg there wasn't a knockout footing because then afterwards they would they would have the series in the bag. Well they would they would they would have one arm and one one one hand on the trophy. But by losing in Joberg, it forced them into that backs of backs to the wall situation where they had to win every

36:21 other game if they wanted to win the trophy. And they did want to win the trophy. I mean, we had this argument about how important the trophy is, but they wanted to win the trophy. They wanted to they wanted to win the series. And and and and that I think is good for for for the World Cup next year is because the Bucks have had three they've had three knockout games in a row. That first game wasn't a knockout game. That first game, I think Rassie said on the eve of the game, he said, "We can we can afford to lose this game because it's the series." Yeah. I just think in in terms of improvement, we've seen uh a progressive improvement from this squad over these four tests. I don't think we were perfect in any game and you can't Rugby isn't a game where a team is perfect. You have opposition who are getting in your way. you have different interpretations from referees and I think that's a subject which we we we

37:10 will probably be talking about in the future because you end up by getting two referees that gave us six penalties and five penalties in the game from scrum offenses and two others who hardly well we didn't actually dominate yesterday quite as much but we certainly dominated in the game when um Angus Gardner refereed and we we didn't get a reward from that so um how can how can we improve I I think It's uh it's very it's very dangerous to move away from your core strengths and uh for us to become a New Zealand style even even you know I know we must I know we want movement and which is fine but but it's I like us being direct even with the backs we've got enough backline players like Colby

37:55 like Arensa like Damian Villima like Sacha you know like um Grant Williams when he comes on who've got brilliant feet and beat people and and find space with um with agility and and New Zealandesque type skill. But New Zealand don't have players who carry like we do. They don't have you know your Damon Dallanders, your Krills, your yours, your Sio Kilis, um your KBAS, you know. So when if we start getting our best will be when we just take the opportunities we create when we if we if we have 12 12 entrances into the 22 opposition 22 we should be scoring six tries out of those 12 you know and to score one in that first test was unacceptable. So I would always say you know here said you know we played so well we created all these opportunities

38:46 but we didn't play well because we didn't take the opportunities. It's no good saying you created this, you created that, but if you don't actually score the points, um you you haven't played well. And uh and so that that I think is the definition of where we can go to to to take to take say we get to take 50% of the opportunities we make instead of 25% which is which was the situation possibly in that first test and second test. The all blacks are way higher in terms of their ability to take opportunities. They didn't have nearly as many as we did over the four tests. We had many, many more entries into the 22. Many more um times when we were 5 meters out, 10 meters out and hammering at the door and then we'd knock the ball on or make, you know, be stripped in the tackle or whatever or held up over the line or the ball pulled out of Marx's hands, you know, they whereas they just

39:36 seem to clinically finish, you know, and uh you know, with very few opportunities. So that is an area of improvement but it's an it's an execution uh um improvement. It's it's the ability to take the right decision at the right time and uh I don't want us to move away from our strengths which are the physicality we bring in defense and in attack. I think that no other team can match that at the moment. Yeah, Bren, we sort of u when we we next right when we when we when we run the ball and we did yesterday, it is like more sort of a more direct sort of attack as you say than than when then when New Zealand run it. I mean I know that Damian Villimir can sort of move across the field because he's got that stepping ability and um but but it is more direct but actually the question I wanted to ask both you guys is what are we going to do? What is the plan at Hooker?

40:25 Because um I'm a I'm a great lover of Brunners Fere. I mean obviously and I think he's he's a brilliant player and maybe that's why Rassie sort of finds a place for him in the squad even though he's you know that John Dobson would think twice about using him at hooker um just because he hasn't played there for so long. Um you know we did we did lose a bit of momentum late in the game yesterday at in the lineout. Suddenly what our impeccable line out from the whole series sort of went a bit arai and sort of let let the all blacks back into the game. I just I'm just interested to see it because and there's the number of people have asked me that like a lot of people especially I mean I live in Cape Town so people love Deion Fere because I mean he's a he's a great stormer as well and and phenomenal and and I hope that Rassie chooses him for the next test which is against Australia on the 22nd

41:12 of August because that happens of September because that happens to be his 40th birthday and um I think that having a guy playing a test match on his 40th birthday will be almost like another little sort of thing that we can boast out in South Africa. But um I just don't know. I mean, I don't know what what you guys think. It's just um I can't I can only see that as a stop gap measure at the moment. I can't see it as as sustainable going forward. You know, my my view on this is uh I'm not sure why they've stopped um investing time in uh in in Young Hedrickk Wessels. He's he's the guy for me who is is the closest [clears throat] to Marks in terms of physicality. Uh he's a he's a big strong guy must be 100 close to 120 kilos. He's very fast. He throws in well [clears throat] and he

42:03 gets moved from loose head prop to hooker. Excuse me. Got a frog in my throat here. And um and I I feel that that he's a guy who if they really spent time with uh he could he could um sort of emulate a bit of what uh of of what Markx does. He's he's very fast and he could learn to be a very good stealer. So So I'm not sure why he's been put on, you know, moved aside. They've used Kabala a lot and they brought Dion back into the mix. Um you they've they've used Andre Hugo Fent. He's he's had one or two tests, but Yaneric Vestals, you know, for me, if he if he concentrated on being a hooker, I think he'd be a very good um a very good bomb squad guy coming off the bench uh and and and uh assisting us to dominate those last 30 minutes.

42:55 Gav, just to add to the the is is I did ask Ruski the question a couple of weeks ago and he he went on about Jan-Hendrik Wessels being the guy that they want to shift to eventually. Like Nick says, he's got all those attributes. The the only thing that I have I mean I understand why Yan Hendendrick Wessels is so valuable in a 33man squad that goes to the World Cup. If you've got a hooker that can play another position, it just adds and that's why they've also tried with Marov and Stalin in the past and Dion Fere. But yeah, you got to feel for Yan Karov because um in that Bulls game against the All Blacks, he he actually in that second half was one of the star players in the in the test against Argentina, he had a great game and uh you know I mean at no point have we really been explained what what exactly he's doing wrong. He was dropped from the box squad for a while where um

43:43 what's um Musova what's the the the scarlet sky was was there as well. So I feel for Yan Kro because I think he's one of the guys at your sea level he's every week same as Andre Kuenta every week he puts in a solid performance and I'm I'm not sure what he's going to do to to convince the selectors but it does seem young Hendrickk is there. Hopefully we'll get some some clarity coming into this game against Australia because I can see us changing up a lot and resting a lot of these guys that played yesterday. And maybe let's just end off with that is just we're going to be we're not going to be on this week because it's an off week. I think we all take a bit of time off and just uh just uh rest after this epic series. But uh Nick, maybe come back to you first and Gav can finish us

44:27 off just about what you expect um the changes you expect. Is it going to be all those changes we expected actually for the second test and a totally different team going against Australia? Yeah, I I would expect there to be quite a number of changes, maybe nine or 10 changes. And a lot of the guys like Pollard who didn't get an opportunity perhaps. Uh um I'm not sure where Grant Williams is. Uh Canan Moodie obviously needs a needs a good run there. Um you find out how the guys are feeling after this test match. A lot of injuries. You know, I know Damian went off Sacha went off with a calf problem. It looked like um Monberg was looking bashed and battered. So the guys have really taken knocks in this uh in this series and uh and and have got through it. But uh you know that Australian trip might be a bridge too far for for quite a few of those guys. So uh I think I think

45:19 they're going to freshen up. It might be a sort of Argentina type of of of team, the team that played against Argentina. um uh you know really pretty pretty pretty pretty much um uh the sort of guys who your backup guys you know who get a your Corbus visa your your uh I think probably will get it will get a good go um at you might find you might find that um that uh Paul Devil's you know the you know giving him an opportunity he did so well for that first 40 50 minutes and then and then you know because of sea coming back and uh and the need to to look for a different style of of of replacement in Cameron Honeycom. He's also he's also missed out. So, there are a number of players who could who could um you know get on the field and do and do the job

46:06 for us. Um and it and it's not a game for any points or anything like you're not winning a competition or anything like that by playing Australia. Again, I think it's just a game to make sure that Australia financially can get through next season. Yeah. I I I I think I I think Brenden that um one of the most important things for Rassie actually in in this series was to win it and then give himself the platform and give himself the space again to be able to experiment experiments in inverted commas. I I don't know how much of it experimentation anymore. It's just giving them game time. I think I think Rassie knows in many instances what he's got and it's just a case of ret. I mean I'd be interested for instance if I mean Ben Jason Dixon came home because of the concussion issue. Will he be ready for Australia? Because I'd like to see him

46:54 him play again. Kbas Visa actually wasn't isn't over there at the moment. So I hope he goes to Australia if um you know if I hope Rassie does call him up to Australia. and and and then beyond that we've got the nation's championship and I think the nation's championship would have become very important for the box to chase if they had lost this series and there was this negativity even if it had been two all there there would have been this feeling of ne negativity because the expectation was that the box should should should win the series. So I I think that that that's critical that that the box did win yesterday and now I think Rassie's got a little bit of leeway. He's got a little bit of leeway if they if they do lose to Australia. Say they that Australia managed to beat them because we changed up our team.

47:36 It's not going to be see them be the massive train smash as it would be if you sort of do and Nick will know this from being a spring ball coach himself in the past. Um we tend we tend to sort of lump the feats together. You lose one game, it's okay. Then the minute you lose two in a row, it starts to become a crisis. And actually Dave Renie is finding that now because now he's lost three in a row. So now suddenly people are asking questions. Um Rassie doesn't have that problem now. He can lose if he loses the next game he loses can be seen as a one-off and so he's now got room to exper to rotate. Yeah. And I think just to add to that, I think um Cameron Hun, we we Nick, you mentioned him just briefly. His cameo yesterday uh there's a stat there of tackles per minute on the field and he was the top in in the entire game. I think made six or seven tackles in the 15 minutes he was on. He was exceptional

48:24 that time and that that tackle on WBY that changed the game and then the try later on. So be nice to see somebody like him get another full go because he was good against Argentina. Uh and uh you know so changes like that should be interesting and maybe a different midfield as well. I think Jesse and Damian have earned a rest as well there I think as well. So but I think we're going to leave it there. We're going to be off this week. Uh we we the Springboks are off. They'll be traveling to to Australia and we'll be back in the week of that Australian test to talk about their team selections then which you should know by then and what they're going to face in Australia and of course looking with one eye on the World Cup next year. Guys, it's it's been great. This it was a performance worth losing some sleep over. I think most of South Africa will probably agree with us there. Uh it's been great again and as

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