Talking Boks Episode 11: All Blacks Arrive In Cape Town For The Greatest Rivalry

00:00 We're back at Talking Boks, proudly driven by Toyota. It's been a couple of weeks since we've been here on your screens, but there's a lot that's happened. The All Blacks have arrived in Cape Town. They've gathered a lot of support, they're welcome. They're from local Cape Town All Black fans. The Springboks are in Argentina trying to concentrate on the test match,

00:17 while everybody's trying to get them to talk about the greatest rivalry. There's a lot of excitement going on in the Springboks and around the whole tour. And with me as always is Nick Mallett and Gavin Rich. Guys, welcome. Nick, let's start with you. I think just to the point, we had Gracia on the team announcement with Sacha last night. There's a bunch of guys coming back from injury that are obviously going to be watched on paper.

00:40 That's a great team, but a lot of them haven't played for a long time. So there's a lot to look out for. And it was great to see Sacha on the press conference last night saying, you know, his last game was against Argentina. He didn't have a great game. It took him. He's got a lot to work on, and he wants to just keep his head down and play for the Springboks.

00:56 They've obviously all got one eye on the All Blacks. Let's start with just your thoughts on the team and what you're looking to see this weekend. Yeah, I think firstly, it's a very powerful side. And we seem to say that every weekend because of the strength in depth. But the balance that Rusty has managed to bring to this team and the fact that he's got like-for-like players in each position,

01:19 and you know what they're going to bring, you know, we've got a great back three here. You know, Aphelele Fassi needs, you know, he needs game time. He needs to play after his injury. And so he gets his opportunity. If you run through Ed Wolf on a nervous cause of trying every test he plays, it seems.

01:37 And Ethan Hooker, getting him back is fantastic. He's brilliant in the air. You know, I could run through the whole team. Andre Esterhuizen is another Damian de Allende. So you're getting exactly the same physicality there. Canan Moodie, he'll have his outside center position

01:54 at his defense test this weekend. Sacha hasn't played for a while, but he's got Qubis, who's also coming back after, you know, after being out for a little while. So it's really important that all the guys who have been carrying injuries have managed to get through at least 50 minutes in this game at full pace and so that, you know, they can show the coaches that they're available

02:21 and ready to play against the All Blacks. The pack is formidable. You know, I think looking at the back five, really those two locks on reputation, you know, they are the best probably with Akhia Snehman that we can put out on the field. The question is, after their injuries,

02:42 can they still maintain the level that we know we get from them every single test match? And we'll see that on Saturday. 50 minutes again, you know, I think maybe a bit longer for a couple of them because on the bench I see what Qubis and Visa and you've got BJ Dixon, both of you can play in the second row if required.

03:05 So these guys are going to have to go flat out to Eben and Lood. The front row, I think Bo and Fink did keep a guy like Tux and Schooner out. I think, you know, he's going to, you know, he must be highly regarded in that Springboks setup. So front row, lots of experience and the back row, we've already spoken about them in the Toyota toughest player.

03:31 I mean, I think that all three of those guys need game time and they need to show that they're ready to go. So this is a very, very powerful Springboks site that has been picked against what I consider to be pretty much a home-based Argentina team missing probably eight, nine or ten of their best players

03:55 who are back with their clubs. So we're showing them a tremendous amount of respect and obviously concentrating on what we can do rather than the dangers that they can propose for us. Gav, just to bring you in, this Argentine, as Nick says, they are missing some players,

04:14 but they still in Buenos Aires are never an easy team to play. They're very passionate. We saw that game against England, how fiery that game was, but there was obviously a lot more personal in there. This is probably the best sort of way for us if you had to pick a game to bring these guys back.

04:30 This would probably be one on there, because at this time of year, the Argentinians are normally at their best. They tend to taper off later on in the season, but they've sort of built up because they get all their club players back and they've been together in camp for a while.

04:44 This is quite a good taste for these guys. Well, you mentioned, you know, Rassie has a very good memory of when he loses because he doesn't lose that often, and he has lost twice in Argentina. So I think I am correct in saying

04:59 the last time we played there was when Marni missed that kick right at the end to try and win the game for us. And then in his very first season in 2018, the Argentina actually beat us up quite badly. I think that's a game that Rassie has always remembered. So it's understandable that he has respect for Argentina.

05:17 I think like me, he regards them a bit as a sort of South Africa's mini-me. He did sort of say that last night in this press conference, said that they play a lot like the box. You also mentioned that there's often an unknown factor there because they include sevens players that maybe we haven't seen before but are really good.

05:40 So yes, it's a good test for the box. And I like the team that's been selected here. Just looking at that side, you know, I think you said to me in the week, Brenden, that somebody had said to you that we keep talking up the depth but that the first team is a long way ahead of the second team.

05:59 In other words, there are players there that are miles ahead of their next challenges. And I went through it. And I would say that probably about Pieter-Steph du Toit. And then I thought about it some more. And we'd all like Eben to be at his best

06:14 because Cobus Wiese hasn't played that many games for the box. But then I thought about it more. And then I sort of thought of Malcolm Marx. I mean, he streets ahead of anybody else in the Springboks when it comes to hooker. But then I also thought about and thought,

06:29 but we won a World Cup final with Deon Fourie at hooker. We won the two games building up to that World Cup final without Malcolm Marx. In fact, we played half that World Cup without Malcolm Marx. And that's really the South African strength, is our resourcefulness, is our ability to actually think on the hoof. And to, I mean, who would have said that,

06:50 I know that New Zealand we're down to 14 men in the second half in that World Cup final. But who would have predicted that the Springboks would win that World Cup, would win that World Cup with Deon Fourie, who I think would be the first to admit he doesn't consider himself to be a great hooker, playing as the de facto captain at the end of that game

07:12 after having played over 70 minutes. So, you know, when we look at the Springboks teams and Nick's right, we say it every week, it's a strong team. And it is a strong team because sometimes it's difficult to actually discern which is our first team and which is our second team. If I could just add to that, I think the key to all this is

07:31 that every single player has a complete understanding of what is required in his position. So if a guy is picked as the ball carrying line-art number seven, if it's BJ Dixon or if it's Lo or Peter Steff to Troy, they understand exactly what Rassie and the coaches want from that position. And obviously there are guys, even if someone like Andre Esterhuizen goes in there,

08:00 he's able to replicate what those guys would be doing in a mall or in a line-art or carrying it up on second or third phase. And this goes right through the team. You obviously have different strengths in each player, but someone like Apollod, Sacha or Mani, they all can step in and they understand the game plan and exactly the way in which we want to play.

08:25 And that is the strength. The strength is the fact that we've got a number of players, but all of them understand their role with absolute clarity. And that is incredibly important. Even on defence, I mean, we're talking about attack now and winning your own ball, but on defence,

08:45 you equally have to know exactly what your role is on defence in each position. And I think all the alignment camps, all the facts, all the times we've had reserve teams playing like the All Blacks or like the French or like the Australians or whoever we're playing on Saturday has really built up some knowledge in this group of players.

09:10 And that's why every time they run out, you don't feel at all nervous about any of these guys running onto the field except how fit are they going to be after their injuries and let's hope they can get through and produce some great performances. But you do that for them. I'm hoping for them they can perform really well.

09:30 But I have no doubt that every single one of them knows exactly what is required on Saturday. And the 15 who left back in South Africa, they know exactly what is required if they're going to be called up against the All Blacks as well. Brenden, I just wanted to bring you in there

09:50 because I know you asked the question at last night's press conference where Rasi spoke about this. I think your question was directed to Lo and Hainakom and the newish guys in the team. And Rasi, I thought, gave a good answer. Maybe you can just recap that,

10:07 where he basically said that everybody is part of the squad. There isn't a sort of thing where you, the guys that are going to play against the All Blacks, everybody is playing against the All Blacks. Yeah, I mean, the question I asked was basically, I said there must be a natural tendency for some of these guys coming back from injury and especially some of the newish guys who want to make an impression

10:28 knowing that the greatest rivalry is on the horizon. To maybe get just a bit ahead of themselves and try too hard and try and make an impression. And Rasi was quite frank about it. He said, look, these guys all know they're part of the squad. They're all going to be playing the All Blacks at some point.

10:46 They all know they're going to feature in the greatest rivalry tour. So there's no need for that. The biggest thing, and then he went on, he actually quite an interesting answer as well, because then he went on to talk quite at length about how the squad's put together and that by the time they're going to get to the third test,

11:01 he reckons it's going to be who's left standing because they're going to see it's quite a bit more attrition. So, Nick, maybe to bring you in on that, do you also see it that way? Do you see it? I mean, the All Blacks already lost one player going home with a cough injury in training. It's a long time since teams have done these sort of tours.

11:19 So they don't always realize the attrition rate, and these are going to be three back-to-back physical tests in South Africa. They are. And on top of that, I think that each of the clubs that they're playing, the Stormers and the Lions and the Sharks and the Bulls, are going to, out of just sheer pride,

11:40 they're going to be performing at their best. Whether they're good enough to beat the All Blacks is another question entirely. But it's not going to be through lack of effort or lack of physicality or lack of getting stuck in. So the All Blacks know that they have seven games in South Africa and one away in Baltimore where they're going to be up against

12:06 some very, very physical opponents. But I think they're aware of that, and that's why they've got a squad of 40, whatever it is, over 40 players, which is a lot. In the old days, they used to go with 32, 33 on a northern hemisphere tour. I think my last one, I mean, it was a while back, but 36, I think we went,

12:27 we played five test matches over five weeks or whatever it was. So there were injuries in those games, but you had enough players to be able to put a test team out in your last game. And what I think Rassie's referring to is you won 15 foot, or 23, fit players in that last test, that third test, so that you can, you know that you've got a player who's going to go out there

12:56 and give you the full 50, 60 minutes before any replacements come on. The All Blacks, I think, have covered, I mean, as professionalism nowadays, they will have covered, they've also got their hybrid players, they've also got players who obviously this poor hooker who pulled his calf, that's really disappointing for him. But they're going to be injuries on both sides all the way through these next five, six weeks.

13:22 Gav, just to bring you also in on this, I'm just going to go back to the point you made a bit earlier as well. I mean, there's 15 players who've been left back in South Africa, well, actually 17, if you count the fringe guys, but 15 probably that are up close to the starting lineup. And as you said, there's a lot of guys who are maybe,

13:39 a couple of guys who are ahead in their place, Peter Steph, Cheslin Kolbe's another one. But it's just interesting because especially going back to this weekend, we talked a bit earlier about Andre Esterhuizen and then Canan Moodie, people would say Damon and Jesse are probably the best in the world at the moment. I think Victor Macfield said it on his podcast the other day as well,

14:00 Damian de Allende is the best center in the world. But people forget that it's wicked when we beat the All Blacks by 30 points, I think it was Andre and Canan Moodie in the midfield. And then in Wellington, it was Damian de Allende and Canan Moodie in the midfield. So just the point that we've been making, just to underscore that, that just the guy who steps in performs and that's what we're looking for here.

14:19 No, no, it is exactly that. I mean, I've always quite enjoyed Kain. He seems to play his best games against the All Blacks, Canan Moodie. You know, there might be times when he's a bit suspect defensively, but he's a very good attacking outside center and he's done well. And Ethan Hooker, of course, did really well in that game last year,

14:41 in that big win in Wellington. I can't remember if he came on as a replacement until he started, but he was brilliant. I mean, this is the thing, though. I mean, I said earlier on that we want Eben Etsabeht to be fit, and everybody wants Eben Etsabeht to be fit.

14:55 But he's another player who didn't play against the All Blacks in that 43-10 win. You'll remember, I think it was Akhia who played as the number four lock that day with Ruon as the number five. Yeah, so it is. I mean, we've just got these guys that come in and as Nick says, it's because everybody understands the systems,

15:19 and the systems are drummed into them. And also the one advantage Rasi does have over somebody like Philippe Contamponi, who's the Argentinian coach, and indeed even Dave Rennie, and definitely the French coach Fabian Gaulty, is that he has a lot of time in camp with his players. I mean, the Springboks went into camp early June.

15:44 I mean, the Sharks were knocked out of the URC. And I know that a lot of the guys weren't involved then, and they had to be sort of dripped back into the system. But he was able to start off with the sort of like the basics of a squad. Quite early in June, if I remember correctly. It was significantly before we played against barbarians in that game in Quebec.

16:07 And that's why. And that's one of the... and he has the alignment camps as well. So the one thing that Philippe Contamponi doesn't have is a lot of home-based players. Whereas Rasi does have. I mean, some of us will say they're not enough home-based players

16:21 because we'd rather that our players weren't playing overseas, those of us who like the other side of the rugby business when the Springboks aren't playing. And we like to see the Stormers and the Bulls and the Sharks do well. But yeah, Rasi does have a lot of time. With his alignment camps, with the time that they spend before the season starts.

16:42 And that's why the guys are so honed into what's expected of them. I'm going to just... let's close off this section with the tests and maybe just get you guys to give a score prediction and maybe what you're hoping to see other than the fitness of all players. Anything you'd like to see. We'll move on to the Stormers or Blacks, the opening game of the greatest robbery.

17:06 I'll go first. I'm hoping obviously for... I don't think it needs to be a big Boc win. It just needs to be a solid Boc win. And yeah, I'd like to see some of those guys maybe surprise us. When I say surprise us in terms of how much...

17:20 We expect the player to start slowly when he comes back from injury. But I'd like to see some of those guys maybe surprise us in how they hit the ground running. Nick, do you want to come in? Yeah, I would agree with that. I think it's mainly every guy who's had an injury

17:33 and is now this is his first opportunity. You know, just for him to get through the game without any injuries and for us to keep our strength in depth going into the All Blacks series. I think a 10 to 15 point win would be what we would expect. Simply not because of playing away. That's always more complicated and the passion and etc.

18:00 They're going to have all that. But I think this is a depleted Argentina team, a Pumas team. And I think we've put a really good test side out there. So I'm hoping that it's going to be 10 to 15 points difference. I'm with Rasi on this. I don't really care what the margin is.

18:20 Just that those players get through the game and that they get through the game well and that we don't have any further injuries and that a big player like Sacha or Eben or somebody who doesn't get injured and then they're not available for the All Blacks series.

18:34 I do think that it might be a bit of a grant just because of the fact that so many players haven't played for a while. I mean, there's always a bit of rustiness and I know that Rasi replicates game situations and training and all that. But there's no substitute for actual match practice

18:52 as Deon Fourie actually said in another forum this week referring to the Stormers. So I'm expecting the box to win, but I'm sort of, this is one of those days where I'm looking at what is that saying that coaches often like to say? The performance rather than the result or whatever it is.

19:11 I'm looking at performance. So I'm looking at what they produce rather than being too concerned about the result. Although I wouldn't like to see the box lose obviously and I'm not expecting them to lose. As with every week we do the Toyota toughest player, but it's always difficult to do one before the time.

19:27 And we haven't seen these guys play for a long time, especially in the Springbok game. So maybe let's start with guys who are you looking forward to seeing this weekend in terms of the Toyota toughest play? Who do you think is going to take that? Because we've got a bunch of guys in the Springbok team this weekend that haven't played for a long time. Nick, let's start with you. Oh, just I mentioned a couple. I'm sure Gavin's got a few more. But I think in the forwards, I think probably Eben Etzebeth, you know, needs to hit the ground running in this game.

19:57 It's a big, big test for him to go from not playing for a number of months into a test match and then preceding a series like the one we're expecting from the All Blacks. So a big game for Eben. I would say obviously Lood. Lood has had a lot of injuries. So the two of them. I think, too, that Cameron Hanekom is someone who was absolutely outstanding prior to his injury. But post his injury, he hasn't quite hit his straps at the same level that I've been used to seeing him perform. So a big game for him. And then in the back line, obviously, Andre Esterhuizen at Inside Center. I think his hybrid capacity, but also his ball carrying physicality, getting us across the game line, giving us momentum.

20:51 It's going to be really important that he perform as well as well. So those tall guys should be in the mix, but I'm sure Gavin's got some more. Yeah, well, actually, I'm sort of almost stumped because Paul de Villiers isn't playing without Paul de Villiers. Because he's almost like the sort of go-to man, like, you know, Paul de Villiers. I would say that every week. And then the second guy would always be Jasper Visa. And he's also not playing. And then the third guy would probably be Pieter-Steph du Toit, who I think is the best rugby player in the world, by the way.

21:23 I think that every any other week, I would sort of say, well, he would rival those other two. And none of them are playing this week. I actually agree with Nick on Cameron Hanekom. I would like to see, because this is really about who we would like to see play well. I would like to see Cameron Hanekom. I thought he was OK as a blindside flanker when called in in an emergency against England. But he didn't, you know, he didn't he didn't sustain. I mean, well, you know, he was replaced at halftime and we haven't seen him again.

21:52 And if you may correct me if I'm wrong here, Brenden, because you you do follow the Bulls players probably more closely than I do. I think I think this is his first start as a number eight, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I think it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's only come off the bench so far. Yeah, he came off in the bench against Wales, if I remember correctly, in his debut game a couple of years ago. Otherwise, you know, Eben Etsabeth, we haven't seen him play for sort of a long time.

22:16 I mean, the last time we saw him and was at a horrible incident again in Cardiff last year. And then I think he played one game for the Sox and then had a shoulder injury. If I remember correctly, that that ruled him out for the rest of the season. That was after serving a three month suspension. So the one thing that Eben Etsabeth should be as fit is fresh, should I say, not fit. I think we're going to see in this game whether he's going to be fit or not, but he's going to be fresh.

22:41 So so, yeah, I would agree with Nick there. I'm sorry, I could throw anybody else into the mix. Andre Esterhuizen as well, actually, because he's been out since he was concussed against England in that first half. And I'm sorry, second half when he came on his replacement. So I would like because he's such a busy player. It's just that I don't know how he's going to feature in the All Blacks series. So if you're looking at guys who you want to see come through because you want to see them excel against the All Blacks,

23:08 then it's obviously the two locks, Eben and Lutt, who we'd really want to see play really well at the weekend. I can say the Cameron Hanekom definitely for me, because Rassie's spoken a number of times at the press conferences about they expect great things of Cameron Hanekom and these injuries have really stopped him from getting a prolonged run in the box team. Plus, he might be one of the guys they look at. He is the guy they look at his maybe Jasper's backup as well because he has that explosive pace as well. So and the physicality, the other guy I want to just maybe is Elrigh Louw because he's also one of those guys on the fringes.

23:42 He's got he's got the physicality. He can he can make a big impact there as well. So I think that's the other guy I'd like to see have a good game this weekend. But yeah, Nick, come in. No, just just to mention the new Stria, I think all three of them need any big game. So Kolisi as captain and it'd be nice for him after after his hamstring injury that he gets back and and starts knocking people over and carrying rucks.

24:07 I remember that Rusty talks about he wants one guy who plays to the ball, another guy who's a good ball carrier, another bloke who hits rucks and can win line arts. And so I think Cameron is the guy who is going to be the stealer. Kolisi is going to be the counter-rucker, the ball carrier in the wide channels. And I think obviously Lo is going to be your ball, your line art winner and your and your guy who carries it up and provides physicality. So all three of those guys have got, you know, they've got to work hard in their department for the Springboks setup.

24:40 Well, we'll chat on Sunday, obviously after the game and we'll know then who's out here to tough as play. But that's who we were going to be watching this weekend. Let us know in the comments who you're going to be watching. But let's move on the greatest rivalry to a rugby's greatest rivalry is here. The All Blacks have arrived. They've got a great welcome from a decent sized crowd at Cape Town Stadium.

25:01 Although I think we will probably all agree that that crowd 20 years ago or 10 years ago and we're still in Super Rugby might have been a lot larger. I don't think we need to debate that too much, but they're going to play a stormless team this weekend and Nick maybe to bring you in. Yeah, it's a stormless team. We had a choice of other being under strength or undercooked. I think is the way I put it together the other day. Yeah, I could play if they want to play the stars.

25:27 They've been off in the preseason. They've had three weeks together, which is not much. And maybe maybe you can just bring us in from a coaching point of view just how difficult it is to get a team ready for the season. From a preseason for big game like this, but it is a once in a lifetime chance for these guys to face the All Blacks. Yeah, I think when you're young and enthusiastic, three weeks is more than enough time. I mean, I just think going back to the days when I was coaching the Springboks,

25:58 I had 10 days before we went on tour to play the first test against Italy. I mean, I never ever had a chance to chat to the team except 10 days before the very first test of that tour in 1997. So it was a long time ago, but there's no doubt that if you get the if you have the right attitude in your camp and the enthusiasm and and the fact that this is possibly a once in a lifetime opportunity for a lot of these players. I mean, there's no question that the URC players that have been selected who haven't been playing in the carry cup are going to be giving it their all in this game. So the storm aside has got a good pack of forwards.

26:44 I mean, I would have loved to see Schickerling there who's unfortunately been carrying an injury. But and the lock situation has been a bit difficult because they've lost Ruben van Heerden and also Salmaan Moerat as well. So, you know, getting three locks of that caliber, Salmaan Moerat and Ruben and Schickerling, it's pretty tough. But they've got Audrey Smoot and I think Con Evans who's coming in to sort of energetic players who get to give it all. Another great opportunity to decide. I don't think it's been announced, but there is expectation that Iman Khan and Ahmadian is going to be is going to be the nine and ten.

27:29 And I think that's except that's incredibly exciting. But they will how they play will depend on how that pack plays. And if you look at the front row that they've got Matonga and and we've got Andre Fenter and and and Nieplyn for she that is that is one of the best damaging front rows in the in the URC competition. So the all blacks will be put under pressure at set piece. And I think the stormers will be playing a game not like the all blacks chucking it around and turning it into a touch right.

28:04 The game I'm I'm expecting the all the stormers to be playing a very controlled set piece to set piece type of game and eliminating mistakes because this all black side. And we've seen in Super Eggby their ability to to to play off turnovers and and bad kicks poor kicks is exceptional. You know, they they have a very low kick to pass ratio. They pass so much more than than the South African teams. So you really don't want to make mistakes on your own ball. But I'm looking forward to it.

28:40 I think they're going to give it their best shot on Friday. And I think all blacks will know that they've been in with a with a with a in a good in a good game. I certainly don't think there's going to be a problem with with with being fit enough. Yeah, just just from your point of view, I mean, the Yaki Ma'amid and Imankom that is the exciting part of that game as well. There's a couple other things there. I mean, we obviously got Andre Fenter and Evan Roos have come back from the box team.

29:07 I suppose the thing for she also fits into that. They they would want to make an impression on Rasi as well. And and then a guy like Ruan Akerman should be probably somewhere in the mix. And I think of these into these years, he probably owes the storm a bit of a good game as well. So just your thoughts on that as well. Yeah, I'd actually you mentioned you're on Ruan Akerman.

29:28 I'd actually consider him as one of the lock options for this game. See now they are a bit short there because I know he has played there. Just I am a little bit concerned about I'm next is that he that he that he thinks that they'll be fit enough. I'm not sure that they'll be matched fit enough at the stage of the season. Nick mentioned that he took his team to Italy after just 10 days.

29:48 It's not I'm not worried about how much time the stormers have together because they spend a lot of time together and it hasn't been that long an off season. But Nick, when you took your team to Italy, you know, they'd come off as it was in season and we sort of playing this game out of season. It's that to me, that's the difference is that the guys are we saw photograph. We saw videos of nailing for she on holiday and in I think it was in New York.

30:13 Wasn't it Brenden? You're you're the social media guy. Yeah, not not that long ago and the guys have had the off time and now they're coming back and I asked the question of of Deon Fourie other day. I mentioned that when I remember as a youngster at school playing right here. I remember once coming straight from a cricket season.

30:30 I'm playing cricket one Saturday and I wasn't able to do whatever they did in those days at school like before the rugby season started and I went straight into a match and I've never been so sore in my life because I just wasn't battle-hearted and I'm just worried that and and and and he mentioned it. Deon did sort of a tacitly sort of agree with me where he said, listen, we do a lot of contact training.

30:55 We've been doing a lot of contact training. He said, but you can't really replicate a match and he says like that first game is always a difficult one. When you take when you're going into your first game of the season and he said Friday night is our first game of the season and starting out against all blacks is one heck of a place to stop. So so so that's that's my concern. It's just that I feel like you know, the Stormers are the right team to start against.

31:21 I think the Stormers are a good team. I think the Stormers in the season would give the all blacks a hell of a go. I just think that it's bad timing and while I think that the Stormers might hang in there early on. I'm I'm a little bit concerned that the match fitness might might they might is what they might be short of later on. Yeah, guys, maybe I think there's not much more to say about the Stormers and that. I just I thought maybe what we could do just something different just to end off this episode is because it's the greatest rivalry tour.

31:48 Yeah, and it's something very unique and we haven't had this for what 30 years at the all blacks have have to adjust. Maybe just maybe end off with a memory from each of you about the all blacks. One of your favorite memories. I'll go first. I just I mean, I can remember being a nine-year-old at 81. Yeah, and sitting in three a.m. in front of a TV and the first memory that always comes up is the game against Waikato

32:13 where the protesters storm the pitch and game and I couldn't as a kid understand what was going on. Why we couldn't just play rugby, but obviously as you go on and begin rugby for all this time, you realize what that tour did to New Zealand and the huge impact it had and just how that over these last couple of weeks I've also been going through old games and stuff like that. It's just amazing the rivalry. Every single tour there seems to be some sort of controversy whether it was 92 Anthem, 96,

32:46 you know, Mark Roff and Francois Pinna and also this heartfelt thing. There's always seems to be something but anyone's the two that sticks in my mind. I was too young for 76 and you guys were but older than me you guys probably can remember that a lot better but anyone that turn that and then an amazing flower bomb test I was looking at the photos again this week of this how low that plane was over Eden Park and it was just a it's quite bizarre to think that something like that could happen in a sporting game.

33:11 So that's my memory. I don't know Nick. Do you want to go on your what your favorite memories of the all blacks? Yeah, my favorite memory is St. Peter is so squander the poles in 1998 in Wellington of a move that Henry Honeybawler come up with. I think that would be my favorite moment. First time we went there in I think since 1992.

33:32 When was it? Yeah, I think it was for 17 years. I think 18 close on 18 years. They hadn't box hadn't won. So, you know that the dead silence around the stadium was music to my ears. I can tell you.

33:47 Okay, Brandon. I'm going to because Nick stole mine because Nick stole mine. I'm going to say that my favorite memory of the Springboks against the all blacks was going into the change room after that game and Nick won't remember this but I remember he saw how emotional I was. I was a kid because I'm one of those guys, you know, there's that old saying cowboys don't cry myself and James small. Unfortunately, never have never conformed to that and I was incredibly choked up after that game

34:14 because I'd been on a lot of try nations to us. Well, I mean it was very early in the try nations era really that only been I've been to New Zealand a number of times already at that particular point and I'd only ever seen the Springboks lose there. They did they did draw that last game against in in Macintosh is last game as coach at Eden Park where we'd Brandon Fanta actually made a mistake that that saw us do not denied the victory. But that 98 win was was was very special in my my other and that was athletics Park and my previous best moment would have actually been also at athletics Park.

34:51 Kerry Hammersay scoring that try in the second test. They under vain on classes captaincy remember that made the box. The box electors have made a huge mess of that of the first test. They didn't even choose the tour captain. But then in that second test they not was was the captain and and Kerry Hammersay's went over to school to try and and we knew then that it was going to be a competitive series. But you can't really talk to me about Springboks against all blacks because I'll go back to 1976 and Yahoo is Tays and intercepting at in the third test here at Newlands.

35:22 I wasn't there but I watched it on TV to set up that series when at a time when spring but rugby was a very low ed because we had lost to the lines a couple of years before actually before I go is just. The first time I came across Nick was actually because we we we sort of we met Nick face to face. Although I did think I met him in the 1992 to a face to face years ago when you popped in with Andrew's to come and visit the box. And you were told that not only do you I think you are going to offer the box some help. You're a fraud and you were told I think by a be malign that not only do you sound like a Frenchman you smell like one. The next next time I met you in your official capacity was actually in Worcester at a civic reception and you actually coached the ball on team that played I think the first game of that tour in 96.

36:16 And I think you chose Corvus for out of Western province and and I think Brayton otherwise it's a little on invitation. Like what was your what was your memory of that particular period? I mean you you you were the ball on coach at the time and you had to play against the all blacks with essentially a sort of very middling carry cup team in those days. Yeah. That was a that was a fantastic occasion for us. I mean to get an opportunity for what it was a minor Union then to play against the all blacks and I think the all blacks demanded that they played against the opposition early on so they could get into the tour.

36:55 And I remember nice butcher apparently on television saying he thought that bullet would take between 60 and 70 points in the game and we had a decent team and and we've done reasonably well in the carry cup. I mean we'd we'd we'd been very competitive against the top teams and and smash the weaker team. So we weren't we were looking forward to playing and then we were told it was a bull on selection. So we took Brayton and Corvus for sake and said and actually said to them you're very fortunate and you're honored to be able to play this bullet team because I'm very sad at having to drop the two guys that from Berlin to you won't get the opportunity to play against the all blacks. And we went out we played out.

37:40 I think it was it was the Worcester just outside Worcester there and yeah it was a great game where we had I remember Iramia was sent against against Mike Bailey and what was it an immovable object against whatever it is a rock. I mean those two smashed each other the whole afternoon and we had I had Dale Stanton at hooker who caused chaos and I think the score in the end was city. Two twenty one something like thirty one. I think thirty two twenty one and we were very competitive and I was very proud of the way the guys played that day. So it was it was a wonderful day for Berlin and also for me as a coach I was a young coach and getting an opportunity to coach against against the all blacks against John Hart at the time was a big privilege for me. So yeah I was I was it was a great day.

38:32 Great day for Berlin and a great day for me too. Yeah I was going to say Nick my memory of that day and I was also there another Gavin was also there that was was quite bizarre because the first thing I remember is that there was Bob why around the field and they were so worried about the all black supporters in the press that they put us in this little part in Bob in all black supporters sat next to us as the press in this part behind Bob wire because they were scared to let us sit next to the crowd and I never understood why. Well I thought that was part of the whole thing because it was really a lovely atmosphere very unique atmosphere for South African rugby and so it was a wonderful game. I do remember that as well. Gav do you want anything to add before we go. And I'm very good luck to good luck to the storm is on on on on Friday night and good luck and good luck to the Springboks on Saturday.

39:23 I'm looking forward to the game. I do think that we we're playing at the wrong time of year. The first time I went to the all blacks love was a Kings Park in 1976 when Natal played against them in the provincial game. I remember that Doc Lowe scored the triathlon a towel and he was a huge hero for that. I think I think the tell lost 40 45. It was a Tubby Hanif it would have kicked some penalties.

39:45 But what I remember about that game was it was a nonstop fight. People used to allowed to be fighting those days and it was just punching throughout the game. We don't get that anymore. But that's what I remember about 1976. There was an all black there was an all black prop. I think who almost lost an eye because of a punch and the late Barry gospel.

40:03 You'll remember him Brenden. He wrote a book of it to it. The end of the tour. It was called one in the eye and yeah, so so so I hope that we don't have a tour. We can't have a tour like that now. I mean the controversy will probably be around red cards or something.

40:19 Yeah, just a final word from you on that as well. I just before you do that the refs have been named. I think they're all very good refs. I think the only concern for me is the TMOs that may be named and we hope they don't play a part in this. But yeah final word for you before we sign off. Just I'm so excited.

40:35 I mean, I hope everyone who listens to our podcast has enjoyed it and please the guys was coming with questions and whatever you guys want us to chat about just give us suggestions. We you know, we're open to talk about any subject and you know, thanks to your support. I mean, that's that's most important. But going into this, I mean, is it I mean, is it possible to be more excited about a series than this? I mean, I'm just I'm more excited than I would be around the Alliance tour. Quite frankly, I think the all Blacks deserve the respect that we give them and they have been our number one opponent forever.

41:11 So and they thankfully have looked upon us as as their number one opponent as well. So we're in for the most fabulous, fabulous six weeks of rugby of excitement of controversy of discussions. And I can't wait and really happy to be able to be on the show with you and chatting to you two about it. Nick, Nick, before we go, actually, I just ask the question one quick because Nick sparked something. I know Morné would have been at number eight that day. So and it was before your time.

41:39 But what were you doing? And were you at the ground in 76 when Western Province won against the all blacks with Robbie Blair kicking the conversion from that from touch? Yeah, I was at the I was at the at the game, actually, I played I played my very first game for Western Province in 1976. I was born. I was injured. And so I played in a very embarrassing game where we lost to I think it was Western Transvaal away and lost in one game. But I was, as I said, 19 years old, but I did play against the 76 all blacks.

42:10 I played against for the gazelles and we had a really good game against them. I think it was 21 15 we lost at Port Elizabeth to vet rust kicking the longest, the longest penalty I've ever seen. I think it was 74 meters. I had a bit of a Southeastern behind it, but we were so tired at halftime that we got a penalty sort of 15 meters inside our half and on the 15 meter line. And we just said, take your time, take two minutes out of the game and kick for polls and just hope for the next. And he banged it over the most incredible kick.

42:44 So I mean, that was I played against Sutherland. You remember the number eight, Alan Sutherland. And yeah, I mean, I was I was a very lucky selection for that team. But it was a huge, huge privilege to play in it and and at such a young age as well. So for these two young guys from the stormers who are going to be playing, they also going to be under 20. And it's really exciting.

43:10 It's a fantastic opportunity. But I was at the game seeing Chris Pope school that in the last moment and also Bossy Clark getting a try early on. Peter Wippert in the center with Ivan Orklett. It was a really good problem. Western province performance actually in those days and and wonderful that that Robbie Blair did manage to get that kick over from from the side. It was it was 50 years ago. Can you believe it? They're 19 years old.

43:39 I was sitting in the stand shouting for the for the not the stormers for Western province in those days. I think I think anybody if you can't see the excitement in all of us for this series, you'll see the year of the next couple of weeks as we talk through it as well. Guys, thanks for joining me. I wish we could probably spend hours talking about the All Blacks and memories there. But that's it for now. We'll be back after the after the games this weekend. On Sunday, we'll review both the stormers and the All Blacks and the Springboks test against Argentina.

44:08 This has always been as as every time as Talking Boks, proudly driven by Toyota. So join us on Sunday and we'll chat to you guys then. Cheers.