Has Rassie shelved "Tony Ball" in order to beat the All Blacks

0:02 Talking Boks, proudly driven by Toyota. >> When there's tough to be done, there's the new generation Hilux. >> It's Johannesburg. It's the third test of Rugby's greatest rivalry tour. And

0:16 we're back Talking Boks uh proudly driven by Toyota, of course. I'm Brenden Nel. With me as always is Nick Mallet and Gavin Rich. Guys, third test is is upon us. We said this is when Rassie's been talking about this is when it really is

0:31 going to be decided. I think uh Nick just come to you first. Uh the bragging rights are there. I know I know it's a four test series and and we can talk about that. But whoever gets the the the bragging rights this weekend, whoever

0:44 wins this goes away from South Africa with two test wins and that's a massive thing and it's it's a moral victory if anything, but it's also means they can't lose the series. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think I think you sort of

0:56 almost look at this as a as a two-part series. The South African leg and then the the four test aspect to it. Um and and I think we must realize that that fourth test is definitely a financial bonus for both for both countries.

1:12 That's the reason they're going over there. Apparently, they'll make twice as much out of that test that as they will out of the Cape Town or the FNB test. So, one can understand the attraction of it. But let's just talk about in South

1:26 Africa and I think I think this has been so tightly contested. It's been an absolutely marvelous uh series with a lot of stress and tension. Uh we've seen sides I mean I would never have expected to be chatting here now uh saying that

1:42 um you know that the that that we won all but they've scored nine tries and we've scored four. I mean that's that's quite unusual going into this into this competition. But watching them play, we knew that they were they were a side

1:56 capable of scoring from from anywhere. Um, but against the All Blacks, we against the box, we always thought that our defense and our experience and our domination perhaps in the front five in the in their set pieces would limit

2:11 their ability to break us down. But in the first two tests, five tries, four tries, that hasn't happened. So, it's it's a it's, you know, it's a just so exciting and and uh and and I'm so looking forward to seeing whether the

2:27 Springboks can replicate what was a pretty much a well disciplined, accurate um and incredibly intense performance uh in Cape Town, whether they can replicate that on Saturday because they they need to against this very dangerous side that

2:43 even not playing well in in large areas of the game, uh they still able to uh they still able to score tries against us and always seem to score around about 30 points. So big big game on Saturday. Gav, I mean it's it is obviously a

3:00 massive game and I mean I don't want to hop on the fourth test thinging but um it's it's massive for both sides because if the All Blacks do win a second test in South Africa uh they can I suppose claim that they they won the miniseries

3:11 in South Africa with I know we've had disagreements on this before but they are a dangerous side and they do tend to find holes against us quite easily as Nick has said and nine tries speaks for itself. Yeah, look on the on the on the

3:25 four test series thing. I mean, you know, um we used to have four test series. I mean, when I first started watching rugby, um four test series was the thing. And um I think later in the in the show, I'm going to ask Nick if if

3:37 he was at the third test of the 76 series, which was at Nunes. Um Yasen scored incept try that. Um but but but uh but but in those days there were two weeks in between tests and even when I first started touring as a journalist in

3:53 1994 we went to New Zealand well Ian Macintosh the Springboks went to New Zealand and it was a it was a three test series but there was I'm not sure between the the second and third test I should have checked before I came on but

4:06 certainly between the first test in Deneden and the second test in Wellington there were there were two weeks and I'm pretty sure the last I think we played Christ church. I think they played a provincial game against um

4:17 Canterbury um on the on the week between the second test and the third test. So in those days there there were there were two weeks between between tests. The 1980 British Lions who came here and played and played a 40 series there were

4:31 two weeks. So you don't and in 1996 which of course was when there was the last tour here um we did have a try nations game prior to the series. Um, so a lot of people like look back on that as a four test series which the All

4:47 Blacks won 3-1, but there was a two-e break between the the the game in Cape Town which was the last game of that year's dry nations and then the the following I mean the first test was was was in Durban and I remember in my mind

4:59 throughout that series it was four tests. So I didn't think of it as three tests. So when they got the when they got the win in in in in Ptoria Zenzan Brooks drop goal uh making sure of it uh you know it it wasn't quite the decider

5:13 that other people were making out. So you can make of it what you will, but the the the fact of the matter Brenden is that um we've got this RGR trophy now, this Rugby's greatest rivalry trophy and that's what people are playing for.

5:26 And regardless of what happens on Saturday and bragging rights and mineries in South Africa, what's going to be reme remembered in a couple of years time is is who's actually holding that trophy. And um if for instance the

5:41 Bucks did lose on Saturday and they went to uh Baltimore next week, we would all be supporting them and hoping that they at least make sure that this trophy is shared. I mean it can be broken apart. We were at the launch last a couple of

5:54 weeks ago. So um so so so I mean that's one of the I mean Bren uh Nick was saying how great the series series is and and what is great is that everything's going to be on the line right until that final week. I mean, in

6:07 my own view, I think the box should have been two-0 up now because they they really did. I know that the All Blacks were very resilient and they've got great skill levels, but the box should have put them away in Johannesburg. And

6:18 I think they were more comfortable winners last week than the seven points suggests. But that the the the All Blacks are very dangerous team just because of, as Nick said, that ability to to to score out of anywhere. And and

6:30 they they just never lie down, do they? They just they don't they just don't go away. and the the last two tests they've they've finished very strongly. >> Nick, um the one thing that I I sort of thought about this morning which is is

6:43 maybe worth chatting about. The Bucks have a haven't won against the All Blacks. They played twice against them at FNB Stadium. They haven't at the Calabash. They they've haven't won a game there. They have won a game against

6:55 Argentina. So, it's not like they scoreless there. But just in terms of it's it's a a venue. Loftus is I mean a great venue for the All Blacks as well. Um you park is a great venue for the All Blacks. I think they won six of the last

7:07 12 tests there as well. And now you take it to Calabash. I understand why on the economic side they'll be playing the these tests here because it's obviously a bigger financial market. But certainly the All Blacks this week have been

7:20 talking about the fact that even at altitude they finished stronger at the Spark. They feel they finished stronger in Cape Town as well. So they backing themselves even though they in Cape Town till till Wednesday. Yeah. They they

7:32 backing themselves that they're going to get up here and they're going to outlast the box and strike hard in the last quarter as well. Just your thoughts on that and and playing all these games at at altitude.

7:41 >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I you know it obviously is for financial reasons you go to where you know people can afford the tickets and can and can and can fill the stadium. So that's the first point. The second point

7:54 is um playing at 5:00 is definitely easier than playing at 2 or 3 in the afternoon. Um there's there is more condensation in the air, I think. And there's uh it's easier to to to get oxygen in. And then it's going to it's

8:08 going to be damp, you know, it's apparently raining up until the day. So, um hopefully a bit like Cape Town, it's going to be dry when they do play. But I think um the that that uh the rain will help as well. Um I I don't think now

8:22 nowadays people are too concerned about where where teams play. The the physical aspect um the fitness aspect is such that these are all professional rugby players and uh you get guys off the bench in any event where you're

8:37 virtually putting another half and brand new team on for 35 minutes. So you the intensity and the speed of the game remains the same for 80 minutes. and uh and and so the All Blacks I don't think are at all cons they're not concerned at

8:50 all about playing. In fact, if anything, they probably prefer with their game plan, they probably prefer to play in on a field that's a bit firmer and uh and faster. So, so I'm not surprised they've had good results against us at at in the

9:07 high felt. Um the the the fact they still haven't announced their team is is not really relevant because in this series uh Rusty has worked out that you can change anyone within the 23 right up until 2

9:21 minutes before they run out. So Rusty can announce the team on Monday and uh and it could be you know completely irrelevant by Saturday you know. So, so um you know unless they you unless the laws are you know everyone says this

9:35 likely not in the spirit of the game etc. But it's absolute garbage talking about spirit of the game in professional eras you know in professional eras where you paid to win games. You do everything possible within the laws within the laws

9:49 that are there to win that game. And uh if this if this wasn't uh you know if if if um if they if they weren't playing under rugby world cup rules uh would state that you have to actually uh you know have medical reasons for changing

10:04 or even if they end the 2023 um then rusty can do what he likes you know up until the start of the game. I mean that's part and parcel of the theater. Gav to just bring you back in here about about the part you didn't answer with my

10:20 question which I think is still relevant when you talk about being up at the at altitude etc. They found the All Blacks have found holes in the Springboks side. Cam Royard has been exceptional on this this series. I think uh especially those

10:31 long floated passes the way they find uh space on the outside. Uh and and I mean I I I heard a couple of journals talk this week about maybe we should get Shark Nino back. Uh the box defense hasn't been bad, but I think they missed

10:44 30 or 40 odd tackles in in total in this last test match, but they scramble exceptionally well. Uh is that just a case of the All Blacks being just masters at finding holes or or is there something you think we need to tighten

10:57 up a bit more in our defense? >> Well, well, firstly, Brandon, just to go back to what you asked, Nick, about the the the um the FNB stadium as as a sort of hoodoo venue for the box. I think I think that a sample size of two is a

11:09 little bit a little bit small. Um we played we played them there in 20 we we we played them there in 2010. It was John Smith's 100th test. Um it was a game where we were in a season where the box had been found out. Remember we

11:23 dominated uh the year before in 2009. Um but in Peter Devils we didn't have the greatest technical coach in the world and and and we had quite a lot of the players running the team and they were playing super rugby when I think our our

11:37 coaches were um yeah well they were playing they were playing they our the guys who were almost driving the team were playing super rugby when the New Zealand and the Australian coaches were sitting plotting the Springboks demise.

11:50 So so that performance at at FNB Stadium that year was actually quite a good one. You'll remember we actually dominated most of that game and it was only right at the end. In fact, they came back and they drew it and we thought, "Okay,

12:01 damn. It's going to be a draw." And then in the last they kicked off and then they scored again and and John Smith actually missed the tackle that that that led to that trial. So that was the one game and then I think the next one

12:12 was in 2012 and and that was a very good New Zealand team. By we by the time we got to 2012, we were in that era which the Springboks have sort of been in in the last little while where where New Zealand were by far the dominant team in

12:27 world rugby. Hane Kameha had just started if I remember correctly there was sort of teething aspects to his his selections and and his games. Um and the I think 2013 was Hane Mayor's best year and we were a bit unlucky that year

12:41 because we lost um we lost that test in in Oakland I think it was when Bismar Dupacy was sent off for that that challenge on on on Dan Carter. So So I'm not sure that that's that that's too relevant. um on the on the box um on the

12:57 box on on the box defense. Uh I you know the the I've always sort of before the series I sort of said well are the New Zealanders um ready for our physicality you know because they don't play against South African physicality except when

13:10 they play against South Africa and South Africa do bring quite a unique challenge in that respect and I think in the same in the same sense it's the All Blacks bring a unique and unique challenge as well. Yes, Scotland uh throw the ball

13:22 around a lot, but but Dave Renie has taken it to a different level like you know the number of rucks that they you know and the way they avoid avoid avoid contact. Um so I think that part of the reason for the box missing as many

13:36 tackles as you say that they have and um conceding as many tries as they have is is maybe there is actually a bit of an adaptation. I mean they're playing against a team that's that's playing differently to to any other team that

13:48 they've played against. So, I'm not sure so sure that we we need Ulf. I mean, I'd love to actually have DJ join back. I mean, I think he's I think I do think he's the best defense coach in the world. So, so I'm not I'm not saying

14:00 that. If Jacques came back next year, I I would I would be very pleased. I know he's he he is planning to come back, but he might well come back at one of the clubs or franchises. I'm not sure what if his if he still has appetite to

14:12 actually coach coach at the box. I mean, we'd have to see about that. But, yeah, when it comes to the defense, I mean, look, the Springboks are going to have to be better. We we you and I were both in agreement in that first half that the

14:23 All Blacks scored twice too easily off their line out. Fortunately, their lineout is a little bit wonky and and hopefully it will be again from a South African point of view. But um yeah, I I yeah, the defense is to me is I think

14:35 Nick said it at the beginning of at the beginning of the series. He said he expects the box to sort of get better later on in the series and I think that maybe the defense is something that might they might get better at as well.

14:47 So yeah, so Gav, that's I I do agree, but from a technical side, I think we can improve our defense. Uh what we're faced with a lot of times uh when they've scored and and when they've created space on the outside is is an

15:01 attack that is three deep. It's got three depths. you have you have an initial line of three or four runners coming off of off Royard and he plays them quite regularly and usually to the second receiver and that's for sort of

15:16 being direct and to penetrate. Um the second guy if he plays out the back to the 10 it's invariably because there is space out wide and we're low on numbers. But what's interesting is they don't attack off that of that one. the 10 who

15:29 gets the ball has has another either a center or or or a loose forward running a really hard line outside. So you've got a flat line which is what they call the front door. You've got a second line of runners which is also coming through

15:43 but through the midfield um hard and flat and then and then the 10 can play out the back to the 15 and the two wingers who are sweeping round into those wide spaces and that's what we haven't faced before. We haven't faced a

15:57 three an attack which has a three dimension to it. So [snorts] we we press hard on the first guys and then we're controlling the second guys but we're in tackling on those second guys. You know the fly off and the and the and the

16:10 loose forward run in the center and then that 10 plays again out the back. He also plays a back pass to the 15 and that's when we suddenly find we're three against the fullback you know and and they score and they make space. So you

16:23 know my view is we have to adapt our defense in the way which I'm sure they will. I mean they much you know they really are technically outstanding our our coaches and that is you stop anything coming through the front door

16:34 and and and I talk about those being the four the four forwards who run off nine you've got to stop Royard himself you got to stop those three or four runners you then when it plays out the back you've still got to stop the loose

16:47 forward runner in the center because that's also direct running and then the moment but then you don't press on those guys you just you've already gone off the advantage line so you stop on those guys, but not stop with your shoulders

17:00 turned in. You've got to stop with your shoulders turned out so that if the ball goes out the back, you can then shift. And it's that shifting that we've got to do that we haven't done in the first two tests, which Ethan Hooker did really

17:11 well in the last move of the game when he waited and waited and gave Will Jordan the outside, made the tackle, and allowed Esther Hazen to make the turnover. And I must apologize to to Andre Esther Hazen. I I I said it was

17:24 Hanukkah and that was mainly because because Matthew Pierce who's a very very good commentator said and Maharak's over over the ball and stealing it. So I presumed it was him but I've looked and I've seen it was Esther Hazen and a

17:36 number of people have told me in fact it was Esther Hazen who stole that last one. So my apologies to Andre and uh and I'm also sorry to Cameron for praising him over an issue which he wasn't involved in. But um that's how I I'm

17:50 look I look at our defense and if we can control that last player by shifting then the cover defense the scramble defense can get there to make those turnovers. So I think that's how we should adapt.

18:03 >> The uh the one thing we we've spoken now about defense but the one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this series and we haven't heard about it for a while is the word Tony ball. Uh Gavis, I I want to bring it in because it's not like we

18:15 attacking badly. We using the power game a lot and that's our main main focus. We're very much a set piece and and aerial battle type team at the moment, but we Tony B was the rage over the last year in the spring team and we haven't

18:30 heard much about it this time. Uh I I don't I mean Tony Tony Brown's a very professional coach. I mean anybody suggesting anything untoward is is just totally ridiculous. But I'm sure he he he hasn't seen the backline function Gav

18:44 the way he wants them to function in this test series. >> Look been speaking to people around the box camp earlier in the before the series started there seemed to be sort of like an intimation let's call it

18:55 intimation rather than an outright statement that we would start to see Tony Ball in the in the in the third test. But I also think that the the box I I mean Rassie Rassie sort of has ch has changed his plan in this in the series.

19:07 Remember before that very first test he was talking about um this is a series and there were guys that um he hadn't selected in that game because they were going to come in later on and this was going to be the decisive third test. I

19:20 think he he probably expected to be two nil up uh by this stage in which case maybe and and that the All Blacks the attrition would start to be be being felt by the All Blacks. Um and that you know I mean Damian Villimson got injured

19:35 so he's not there at the moment but you know I I and I don't like hopping on about this all the time but but I can't help it because I do just love the guy when he plays when he does play the odd game at inside center. Uh so they didn't

19:46 they didn't have that option now because he because he's not he's not available anyway. Um but you know our best our best our biggest wins against New Zealand have been with Mary Lebach at Flyoth with either Andre Esther Hazen or

19:59 or or Damian Villimsa at inside center and Canan Moodie funnily enough at outside center. So, um, when it comes to Tony B, you know, I I we we we're just desperate to win the series. And at the moment, it is the Spring Bachok power

20:13 game that is the difference between these two teams. And I think Nick said it right at the beginning. You don't want to play this particular All Black team at their own game. And and and I think that's where Tony B ball has gone

20:24 at the moment is that it's just been shelved a bit. I'm not saying completely shelved. As I've said before, if you've got Sacha at fly halfoff and if you've got Monty Monty Labok as your backup as your backup fly halfoff and in this test

20:36 you've got Chis Colby at fullback. I mean, you've definitely got plenty of um potential to attack and and and and you've got that dynamic, but um I just think that at the moment the box are sort of taking a test by test and I

20:49 think the selection for this game sort of shows that that that that Rassie thinks he's got the physical measure, his team's got the physical measure of New Zealand and at the end of the day, all the talk about um New Zealand's

21:01 fancy running and everything, it's still the power game. but still the forwards that that that win test matches and and I think that's I think that's where we're sitting at the moment is we we're not looking at head at the World Cup as

21:12 much as we have been in other in other matches we've played in the last two years at the moment we just want to win the RGR series we we want to win that trophy you were talking about whether whether you do it now in in um in FNB

21:25 Stadium or you do it next week at Baltimore we want that RGR trophy just like the England and Australian cricketers want the ashes Yeah. So, so I don't think we've completely um I mean absolutely haven't

21:40 um disregarded uh the how good Tony Tony Brown is. Um what what uh everyone thinks that Tony Tony Ball is uh your ball out out the back and moving it outside center to the wing and wide wide play and and playing like the All Blacks

21:58 quite frankly. But that that isn't necessarily how you how you always have to attack. Um the Springboks used to have a very direct attack which they pass to the first ball carrier with two cleaners and it was just I mean that

22:11 that was just physicality you know so opposition would line up and they'd know okay we can double hit the first guy and if we if we are courageous we can we can stop um some momentum here. But the Tony ball that that you that the All Blacks

22:25 play is played off nine and 10. Um the Springboks are basically playing off nine now after that first test. The first test we tried to play off nine and 10, but there were so many balls on the ground and even the centers were passing

22:38 onto the ground. Our our skill level wasn't up uh didn't measure up uh in that game. So the second test what we saw, we saw a much more nominated game where he ran a couple of paces. Kbis Rein, he's a threat himself. The

22:53 first guy coming short on an angle is a threat. A guy running on the overs line is a threat. And the 10 who runs hard at the line as well. All the centers who running hard at the line are also a tip off. So it's not one guy who you know is

23:08 going to carry it into contact. The nine you're not sure whether he's going to pass. When he does pass, you're not absolutely certain that that guy is not going to make a little tip on pass either. And and so what it is, it's it's

23:20 basically three or four big guys running hard at the line and you're not sure who's getting the ball. That's much more effective than just passing to one big guy with two cleaners where you can spot him before he even gets before he even

23:32 gets the ball. So, so I think Tony Brown is influencing the angles of running of our three guys off nine and also how nine has to run a little curving loop to get away from the first defender, run onto the second defender, put him in two

23:48 minds and then the third and fourth have to wait because he hasn't passed yet. So, they might come up but that opens dog legs. I just think those first three tries we scored were classic examples of people playing on the line but the

24:00 opposition not knowing exactly who to hit you. Even even uh Khisi's try, he came very late and he spun in it and the two tacklers he was in between the two tacklers. So our attacker was dominating the defense because of the speed with

24:16 which we were getting ruck ball and the and the and how accurately our nine was playing our runners and the opposition didn't have time to get into position to make a double hit on our on our on our attackers. So I think that that is where

24:30 Tony Brown's made a difference. Even with our playoff nine, we have more variation than in pri you know prior to him arriving here. >> And and just just on that to add on to that, I mean the the other thing that

24:44 obviously worked that that made that possible was and Gabe you can come in here the the uh the line out obviously we disrupted their lineout especially when they were now 22. uh Iban Etsz had a fantastic game, but uh certainly

24:57 that's something that that's that's that stood up again for the Springboks and the All Blacks will try and counter that this week. And then the rolling mall uh I mean that first try was from the devastation. I think S's try as well

25:08 started with a mall as well. We we certainly put them under pressure with the mall and I I can see us doing that a lot again on Saturday. Yeah, look, I mean that was a statement. The statement was made on Saturday, but

25:19 with that very first mo um you know the way they just remember at the World Cup in in Japan, I can't remember who it was against. Um it was one in one of the playoff games where >> in the quarterfinal

25:32 >> was called a 50 me try from a mall. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they called it the move. Remember they they they decided that they were going to they were going to call it the move. Um, and that was the statement and then it just that that

25:45 it sort of reverberated from there and and the Springboks just had momentum. It was the quarter. I knew it was a playoff game and of course it wouldn't have been in that Japan game. I mean in the in the Welsh semi-final because they just

25:54 kicked everything. Both teams just kicked everything in that game. So So yeah, it was definitely Japan. Um, yeah, look, I mean South Africa are very good morning team. Uh, they're a very good scrumming team. I think we'll talk about

26:06 that later. It's just, you know, a lot on Saturday depends on how much reward they get from their scrumming. Um, their line out, they're very good, very good defensive line out. I mean, there's a lot of thought that goes into into the

26:18 South African line out and that dates back to Victor Matfield's days. I mean, where he was, he was a genius. Um, and I'm looking I'm still looking forward to seeing more of L L because L is a very clever line out tactic, too. So, he only

26:30 came on, I think, was it for 15 minutes last week. I'm expecting him to probably play a little bit more on on on Saturday than than he did then. He was unlucky with that yellow card. I don't um you know I don't count that against him. I

26:44 just think that that L Daga is such a strong ball carrier and and also then such a big influence in the lineouts also because of his size. He looks like um you know he he just you just look at L and you think of um when we were kids

26:58 um Asterex and Obel he looks a bit like sort of Obel sort of like rising up above everybody else and all the other goals. Um, so, so yeah. So, I'm looking forward to seeing I'm looking forward to seeing more of him on Saturday. I hope

27:11 he hasn't be taking the magic potion, but yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing more of L on Saturday. >> Well, I don't think I don't think Olix's figure is quite L's figure. I think it's >> No, I agree. I agree. Y, [laughter]

27:24 >> but interesting comparison. >> Well, just >> Well, let's have a quick look at the selections. Anyway, it was come out came out on Monday again. Russia, of course, and I see some of the some of the

27:37 critics again have said he refused to rule out a late change in the front row, but I mean, yeah, we don't want to hop on that. I just I find it funny how people look at these things at the moment. Uh, you know, uh, but he he did

27:49 say that is his team. Uh, he brought Chzon Colby in at fullback, which was one of the things we perhaps suggested on Sunday might happen. Uh, and Kurtie Orren is back. So, there's there's three guys who very quick at the back there as

28:01 well. Uh, and and kept the same team. So Nick, just your thoughts on the fact that he's he he hasn't freshened up. He's obviously wants to win the series and he feels that the guys who did the job on Saturday can can front up again

28:12 and do the same this week. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think I think the the important part of it was his uh his comment where he made he thinks his players have played 60 minutes less per per player than the All Blacks have up

28:24 to up to this point. And uh a number of the guys, the older guys that we were all thinking might uh be puffing for the second week in a row, he says, you know, have had a long break from rugby. So they actually are now building into

28:37 their season as opposed to, you know, being being really tired. I mean, a guy like Khisi both had long injuries and and and and disqualifications. So they so they are actually, you know, in in prime condition to to play three or four

28:52 games in a row without any problem. and and physically they'll know exactly who in their team uh is right whether they're niggles whether they aren't and also mentally um how how this team can get up for the game but remember that

29:06 sea didn't play the first game so I mean he for as a as a captain has won the first game that he that he was involved in and would be will be very very keen to run out you know at the FNB stadium and and and set us up again like like we

29:21 we were set up in that second half to finish the game well and um All Blacks came back but but I still think the 2415 at Halime gave us that that start that we need. Um so so getting getting the same team is as Gavin said a statement

29:39 that this is this is vital for the South African supporters that we win uh 2-1 in South Africa. Um that we go to Baltimore you know in a position where we can't lose the series. that's also, you know, pretty critical. Um, and then if you are

29:54 going to make any any changes, you can do that at Baltimore. Um, where you can perhaps freshen up and and that works with us because when we put fresh players in, I don't think our players are are that far behind the guys who

30:09 start, you know, the guys on the bench. We've always spoken about the strength in depth. So, possibly all that's happened is that lost in the first game is pushed out by one the changes he wanted to make. You know, if we were 2-0

30:20 up, we might then be having changes for the third game. But the fact is now we we won all, we need to get to 2-1. And then if we at 2-1, I think we we might see some changes before Baltimore. But that's just my supposition. You know, he

30:33 he you know, Rassie, I never know what he's going to do. >> Well, I think the rest of the world doesn't know either. That's that's part of the some sometimes the uh I suppose, what's the word I'm looking for? the

30:46 pool cut that happens a lot of the time as well. Yeah, >> the players don't know. The players don't know what he's going to do, not even the week before. [laughter] >> G and looking at the All Blacks, I mean,

30:58 we expect them to freshen up. There's there's talk that Ethan Dret and Josh Lord are back. So, they might come back into the team. Ethan Black might have a role somewhere as well in that side as well. And I see the other name I saw was

31:10 Asafu Amoa, the the the the front row, the the hooker who who's who also could come in there and play a bit of a physical role, but they'll probably look to freshen up a bit more, but maybe not as much as we think because I think by

31:23 now we thought both sides would be have a lot more injuries. >> Well, well, Nick said Nick said it Nick said it on Sunday, they avoid contact. I mean, their whole game was sort of trying to avoid contact. So maybe the

31:34 the impact, you know, Rassie said at the beginning that he thought that we were going to get to the third test and and the and both teams will be six or seven down when it comes to injured players and and that hasn't been the case. I

31:45 mean, the Springboks have lost Damen Villima. Um he's the only guy that that that they've that they've lost so far and the Bucks Oh, sorry. where the All Blacks have have lost Josh Well, they'd lost Josh Lord and um Ethan Dutert, but

31:59 I mean that was like a freak a freak occurrence where two guys ran ran into each other. Um so you so there hasn't I'm trying to think if if the All Blacks have lost anybody else. They lost guys in in the tour games. They they lost

32:11 they lost guys had to fly home after tour games. I mean the All Blacks are in a position where where where they can freshen up. I mean you almost to sort of you took the words out of my mouth when you mentioned Ethan Black at her. I

32:22 mean, he was absolutely phenomenal against the Lions in that game at at Ellis Park. They wouldn't have won that game if Ethan Blackout wasn't playing that game. I mean, he was just he was just absolutely outstanding and and

32:33 there was talk of at the start of the tour of him sort of like playing that kind of openside sort of flanker role. So, he's he and he doesn't have to just play there. I mean, he's a I mean, he's he is a phenomenal player. Um, very a

32:46 very tough player. Um, you mentioned you mentioned the the the the backup hooker who who who has done very well coming on not just in the tests but also in some of the in some of the tour games. If I remember correctly, he scored the one of

33:00 the clinching tries against the Stormers right at the beginning. I I might be wrong. It's all so long ago now. Um, and I, you know, I haven't heard his name mentioned in any dispatches this week, but if I was the All Black coaches, I'd

33:11 really be trying to sort of find a place somewhere in that backline for Rico, who's um, who's probably improved by by play by playing in the URC, quite frankly, and playing for Linster. He's he's a he's a very good player as well.

33:24 So, so, so the All Blacks do have options going into this test, and it's going to be interesting to see what they come up with um, with their selection on on on Thursday. Yeah, the the one the one area perhaps

33:36 too is Richie Moanga and and Love. Um, you know, he's backed he's backed uh he's backed Love at 10 um for the first two tests, but Manga has got you know, you know, he's got a huge reputation in New Zealand. So, it'll be interesting if

33:52 if uh if he carries on with Love and and then maybe plays Manga in Baltimore or he makes the change now. Um it's not as though their backline is not operating well. I would have thought that if you're looking at any changes, it's to

34:05 try and get stability at scrum time and you know that we're not going to bang on about the scrums. I I I think I I do think that they're going to struggle against any any front row they put on the field will struggle against our our

34:19 best our best front row. And if anything, they'll get par against our second front row, which might start or they might come on um depending on on on weather and Rassie's mood. But um but I in the forwards it's it's where they

34:35 need to really front up. It's the ability for them to win. Well, they had possession. They had 57% possession for Saturday. But remember it came a lot from 35 kicks we did or 30, however many kicks we kicked. We kicked a lot of a

34:48 lot of ball onto them of which they did recover, you know, more than 50%. So, um they look at that as being a big possession opportunity. Um, and we've got to be better at at uh at defending uh our contestables when we lose them.

35:06 So, we kick the contestables. If we don't put the guy on the ground immediately and counteract and put them under pressure, they've got that back line set up there to to to counterattack. So, that could be

35:16 dangerous. But the line art too, um I I think they're very nervous about the throwing of their two reserve hookers. And I think Cody Taylor is the guy they they trust with um you know with vital ball um because because definitely he's

35:33 getting to the end of his career and the guys who come on have got more um intensity, more ball carrying ability and and and uh more dynamism than than he and he's been giving away some silly penalties for discipline as well. But

35:48 but it's just his line out throwing and is is so vital to them because if they get if they're under pressure in the scrum and they start losing their lineouts and we start winning 50% of our contestables, you know, then they then

36:00 they will definitely be in trouble. But the way they look at it, get par in the scrums, win our lineups, don't worry about the All Blacks, the the box, maybe we can steal one or two of theirs, but for them getting the contestables right

36:14 is critical to their attacking ability. Nick, in your experiences in your in your experiences as a co as a coach because when it comes to that sort of physical dominance that the that that the box have and and they definitely do

36:25 have the advantages in the scrum and the advantage in the scrum. How easy is it? Cuz I mean I have periodically seen situations in the past uh where teams that have been completely dominant in the scrums and suddenly it gets it gets

36:38 reversed. And you were probably in France at the time but in 1990 Natal play I know it's a long time ago but um in 1990 Natal played a curry cup final against Northern Transval where they were completely dominant in the scrum

36:50 but two weeks before that they'd lost 286 in a league game against the same team and and had been dominated. Um and there have been other times even even actually more recently I think 2022 where we dominated um we dominated the

37:04 the All Blacks in the Mumbella and then we came to Ellis Park and their scrum was a lot better in that game although we didn't help ourselves because we left marks on the bench and and we played we changed up our hooker with Joseph Dwber.

37:16 I mean how easy is it and and now we've just got one week between games whereas I'm talking about 1990 it was two weeks. I mean, how easy is it in your coaching experience? Can you turn it around? >> Well, I mean, personnel is is vital. I

37:30 mean, it's the personnel you have. If you go in there, we go in with marks and ox and chair, you know, I don't really care who they have at Hooker or or or or tight head, you know, they're in for a really tough afternoon. But if they're

37:43 faced with Stenna Camp and they're and they're faced with Dion Fere, I mean, very good rugby players, but don't have that explosive power at scrum time that the other two have. And and Wilo, let's let's not uh underestimate how powerful

37:58 that guy is and how technically correct he is. He's absolutely dead straight. Rather like Molhura. Mhera was better around the field, made more tackles, cleaned more rucks, but Wilco has got the same scrummaging power as he has. So

38:11 when when we get Wilco Lo and Oxen chair and and Malcolm Marx in the front row, I challenge any front row in the world to match those guys. They can't. There's no no one can match those guys. In fact, probably the better the best would be

38:24 Thomas Detoy and uh you know if they had Yan Henrik Vestals at Hooker and he'd played there long enough and and you know a lucid prop like ST perhaps those would be the the guys that that would would would handle our best front row

38:39 the best. So, the All Blacks haven't got the personnel. I don't care what they say. They haven't got a tight end, nor have France got a tight, nor has England, we dominated them as well. We we smashed Ireland in the front row. No

38:51 one's accused us of walking around any of those games, we've just got penalty after penalty because those are the laws. And let's hope on Saturday that if we get that same dominance and what they do now is is now they don't want to stay

39:03 up because if they collapse, they force the referee to make a decision between one or the other side. So you have a 50% chance of getting it right, you know, of of of actually getting a penalty. Whereas where's whereas, you know, the,

39:16 you know, the referees should be good enough to see who is actually pancaking, who's going down. So this this Saturday, I mean, we're going to come as hard as we can in the scrums and and hopefully we we're going to get a better um you

39:30 know, better reward for our dominance in that area of the game. Um but that will that will depend on the referee and and the two uh the two assistant referees on the side because um because they provide the information. The guys who are on the

39:43 other side of the scrum from the referee provide him with information as to what happens. But we can't have if Rusty's correct in saying the first six scrums went down and uh there was only a penalty in the 35th minute when Marx and

39:56 Oxen came on then that's inexcusable. You're not you're not you're not referring the laws of rugby correctly and you're turning it into you know you're turning it it into it's basically a joke cuz the side that puts the ball

40:08 in just collapses the scrum. How can you go forward if the scrum's lying on the ground? You can't. So in fact they are they are you know basically cheating to stop themselves giving a penalty away. And if the refs

40:23 play away at number eight but you've put pressure on them started to get them going back and they and they fall to the ground. It's a penalty and uh unfortunately we didn't get that on Saturday, last Saturday.

40:33 >> Okay. Um Nick, I mentioned earlier on the the because we ran out that sort of almost unique situation now where we playing the third test of a four test series. We we we we don't do that anymore. The last time I can remember a

40:45 third test in a series was actually in 1980 Lions that game in Port Elizabeth where Kay scored the winning trial if I remember correctly. was it I think a quick pass from a quick a quick throw in from Kerry to to tantober and then back

40:59 to Kerry and he scored that try. Um but before that four years earlier than that all four years earlier than that we and that was in the rain at at the old butasmas. Um the four years earlier than that I I've got very vivid memories of

41:11 that of that of that third test. We'd go, it was one all um and uh your your brother-in-law Peter Whip was actually playing with um with Yanuen in the midfield and Yan changed that game with an intercept try and if I remember

41:25 correctly the late Dari Snan snapped over a drop goal towards the end. Um were you we spoke earlier in the series this tour about you being at the Western Province game. Were you there that day and what were your memories of that of

41:36 that day? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was at the game actually and I was uh I was in the north stand. I remember behind the polls. So, um watching and uh I think what was I 19 I think at the time and uh and Peter I

41:51 mean Peter I'd been playing at UCT with a lot of those guys. So, um, Chris Po, Peter Whip and and and played against him for he was played for the police and and I remember that so clearly, you know, they they played it

42:05 really flat through a skip pass and he read it like a book and and from behind the poles you saw the interception and then you just saw him disappearing towards the south stand. That was a fantastic moment, you know, but uh but

42:18 brilliant uh um you know, brilliant memories uh from from Newand's in those days and uh and I if I'm if I'm not mistaken was ever any people moan about the the the Cape Town stadium, but there was

42:32 some test played at Newlands that were in mud. I mean mud that was that deep but but to winning that test was critical for us to going going forward and uh and I think it was a close theories that one as well was Monet

42:46 captain I think Monet captain that's there yeah in that series yeah and I think we won it 3-1 so was it 3-1 or yeah >> yeah it was it was 3-1 we we won the last we've won the final test in Ptoria

42:57 by one point I but in Joberg sorry the final test was at Ellis Park funnily enough funnily enough in that series from what I remember scrumming was a big issue there. I don't know if you remember Yahan Strauss. I think he came

43:07 in for the for the for the last two tests and the All Blacks were complaining that his scrumming was illegal or something as well. So So there's a trend that sort of lasts over over 50 years.

43:17 >> Yeah. I don't know if we've got a time for this story, Brendon, but I remember that Robbie Cochl Robbie Cochril was the hooker and I played with him. He was a lovely bloke, Robert Cochril. And he was really kind to me as a youngster. In

43:29 those days there was a big uh you know if you were a young guy you you know you sat at the front of the bus and the old guy sat at the back there was a big uh but he said to me in that game he said it was quite extraordinary cuz cuz um

43:43 you know he would say to to Yan Strauss uh just take it a bit lower and he'll just crunch this thing down by 10 cm you know and then he said not low enough go a bit lower crunch it down this poor bl New Zealand loose head you know he was

43:56 being told you know that he was being bent in half by by Jan Strauss and he was immensely strong a really really strong the typical Wilco Low type of guy probably didn't didn't tackle many people and didn't win too many loose

44:10 balls or racks and stuff but he could scrum that guy and he used to crank them down with his shoulder you know in those days that I mean if you had to look at at scrums in those days they looked the most dangerous things in the world I

44:22 mean flying over the c the stadium was nothing compared with trying to go into a scrum you you the hooker would join up with his props literally half a second before he was making contact with the opposition front row and and it hardly

44:36 ever collapsed. It was quite extraordinary. The guy stayed up the thing would wheel and push and eventually the the the rear foot would get his hand on both both props and say, "Okay, put it in. It had to be

44:46 straight." But if you were dominant in that in that area, Jeepers, you got reward for it. >> Yeah. Now listen, these stories are great. We always have time. And if we don't have time, we'll make time for the

44:57 stories always. I think people enjoy them as well, Nick. Uh guys, I think let's just close off with maybe Gav come to you first for prediction. Um yeah, and what you want to see on Saturday, what what the box need to do to make

45:09 this 2-1. >> Well, well, I think a lot depends whether the referee is going to allow um Wilo to be to repraise the Johan Strauss role all these years later. I think if the box do get rewarded in the scrums, I

45:22 think they're going to win and I think they I think that I think I think they might win by 10 points. I think that I think we had them on the ropes at at Ellis Park. Um I don't as as Nick says, I think it's a personnel thing. I don't

45:33 think that they've had enough time between tests to suddenly turn their scrum into this dynamic force that can stand up to the Springboks. So if they and and that's why we've got this narrative coming from New Zealand

45:44 because they know that they're inferior there. Um so if the spring boss get rewarded and um Nick Masha Kelly comes through a country that's like ours as as um Don Human said yesterday. I don't know if you saw that Nick but um he was

45:59 saying that what he would like as South Africans to do what the Norwegians did at the soccer tour at the recent World Cup FIFA where they go row row row. He said he would like South Africans to start this thing where just scrum scrum

46:12 scrum. Georgians are like that. So we've got a Georgian referee on Saturday and that might actually turn work out in South Africa's favor. So I think the Spring Boss will win, but if they don't get that reward at scrum time, then it

46:24 could be a very close game and and and we could be we could be biting a nails towards the end. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just just to add to that, I think I think um it's a pity, but the referee is going to be very is

46:38 critical in this in this in this performance. um whether there's been a general message from world rugby to depower the scrums de you know so that it's not just Angus Gardner but it's after the first test it's a message

46:52 saying listen guys you know um you know this is we we're giving we're giving too much um the scrum is getting is is is giving a side too big an advantage and uh and we I think we must lessen the importance of of the scrum then if

47:08 that's the message that's gone out and the referees have taken that in then we're going to see the same type of performance from from the Georgian refer. So so let's hope let's hope that uh the the laws they haven't changed.

47:21 You've got to you've got to legally scrum. We do not scrum round. There's no reason to. We scrum through a team. And um and so so if if if things go like they did against us in in Cape Town and as Gav said we get the scrum penalties,

47:38 I think we we'll be comfortable. But um but remember that this team is four or five tries. They don't seem to kick penalties for polls. So they go for seven points, seven points, seven points, which makes them get, you know,

47:51 points on the board really quickly. And we said they score 30. Well, they scored 26 last weekend and had the ball in that last movement, which could have been unpleasant for us. So we're going to have to score 30. So it's up there.

48:04 We're going to have to score more than 30 points to beat them. So our tech is going to have to come right. But we will if we if we get all our discipline right, our scrumming, our line arts, get get reward for dominance in the scrum

48:15 and if we and and if we utilize a defensive system that is a little bit less um aggressive in the outer extremities because that just gives them the overlap and and we can't just give them easy tries like that.

48:30 >> Yeah, I was going to just add to that. I mean, I I think that's the one thing w with this all black team in these nine tries is is there's at times felt almost like we dominating the game so much, but then they score what feels like an easy

48:43 try. Uh I mean, Audi through the middle, missed tackle by Dion Fere, uh Jesse and Damian missing tackles like that on the outside. Uh if we can tighten that up, it should make a hell of a difference. And I think our power game and our line

48:56 out and the scrum should be strong enough to to to take the fixture. But they are they are a good side. We got to give them credit and they're putting up a hell of a fight in the series. So, should be a crackover test on Wednesday.

49:07 Uh oh, Saturday. Sorry, Wednesday. Wednesday. Where am I now? Anyway, Saturday going to say be missing a good game. >> Yeah, [laughter] >> I will be missing a good game. You're

49:16 right. Uh anyway, but uh yeah, I also I also think the box could win. I I'm I'm just a bit wary at the fact that even though we've dominated them with the power, they they've still they've won the first game quite easily, scored five

49:27 tries to one and uh in the end and the second game they were so close when technically they shouldn't have been without our dominance. So they are a good side. I just I hope the box can do what they need to do. If they do, I

49:38 think they'll be on the winning side. Uh guys, I think we're going to wrap it up there. I think we're all looking forward to a great test. We'll be back on Sunday uh just to wrap up the test and and then before the box leave for Baltimore say

49:49 exactly where we sitting then. Uh it should be a good chat anyway. There'll be lots to talk about. There's been so much to talk about this tour already. But thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, hit that subscribe

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