Rassie Goes "Full Metal Jacket" vs Italy: Why he selected Moerat and more

0:02 Talking Boks, proudly [music] driven by Toyota. >> When there's tough to be done, there's the new generation Hilux. >> Welcome back. It's Talking Boks, proudly driven by Toyota. I'm Brenda Null. With

0:15 me as always, is Nick Mallet and Gavin Rich. We've had our first team for the November, the nation's championship test uh selected and quite an eye openener just for the fact that they're playing Italy and uh Rassie's gone sort of as as

0:31 John Dobson would say full metal jacket gone with his strongest possible side considering injuries. There's obviously a couple of those but the strongest side he could pick for this test and I think maybe that surprised us a bit because we

0:42 thought maybe he might mix it up for this. Nick, let's get your first impressions on on the team that was selected because uh perhaps after that Australia thing uh you after the loss against Australia, Rassie doesn't want to

0:55 take the chance again and and and he's already put out the message that he wants to win this nation's championship. >> Well, that that's definitely what what I what I believe having looked at this team. I mean, I'm going to steal a bit

1:08 of what Gavin said um before the greatest rivalry tour that that first loss against the All Blacks were because perhaps a bit of lack of cohesion uh in the team and uh going into you know if we're going into France and Ireland um

1:22 it looks like we we we sort of we sort of preparing a 23 for four games in a row. You know, he did he has mentioned it would be nice to get some of the young guys onto the field. Perhaps he will with with injuries, but um uh you

1:37 know, if if everything goes to plan and we play well in this game, get our five points, uh I can't really see him putting in a changed team or a much changed team against France and then Ireland because, you know, it is a it's

1:51 the first time we've had this competition. I think it's the interest will build once people understand what it represents. I mean, to finish top in the Southern Hemisphere will be outstanding. and to play that final game

2:03 which counts for two points as opposed to all the other games that count for only one um you know is a big uh is you know is a big feather in the cap of the Springboks. So I think perhaps Rassie's changed his ideas a little bit about

2:16 this. you know, Northern's hemisphere used to be to blood some youngsters and uh and mix it up, but it looks like he's going uh you know, with the best team possible and um despite you know, a couple of guys obviously Esther hasn't

2:31 um but Colby Pollard, one would argue would Polard have been on the bench anyway. So, uh, you know, this is really a a full a full metal jacket team, as we say, and, um, I'm I'm looking forward to I'm really looking forward to this next

2:47 month. We've got four, uh, amazing games to look forward to. Gave, just to bring you in there, um, the one the one uh, and maybe Nick can come in after that as well, the one selection that maybe has raised

3:00 eyebrows, and we mentioned it last week when we looked at this touring squad uh, was Salmaan Moerat. Uh and Rassie was asked about that yesterday and he also said he doesn't listen to the nonsense that people talk about Salmon Marat. He's

3:12 obviously a guy who does a lot of work for the Springboks. They know what he can bring uh and does a lot of stuff away from the limelight. Uh sort of the dark arts in a way. Uh just your thoughts on that and Nick you've worked

3:23 with him a bit. You can come in after Gavin just give give your thoughts as well. Yeah. Well, first before I go on to someone Morat, um Brennan, just um turning on from what Nick said, um I

3:34 actually see a sort of prag um Rassie being pragmatic here. And um I'm not sure not entirely sure how we should read Rassie's selections on this tour until we go into the next game. And I'll tell you why. Because I was thinking

3:47 about it before yesterday's selection. In fact, whilst I was sitting spending many hours at the cricket at Newton's last week, um that uh you know what what Rassie's got on this tour is a situation where he's basically got with the guys

4:02 who played URC and there's the one guy who well um certainly Simon Morat plays top 14. Um he's he's basically got six days to prepare for the test against Italy. um he's chosen that new ro those those those new six newcomers and in the

4:19 press release that he put out yesterday I think it was quite clear that he does intend using them later in the tour but obviously you can't absorb those guy because some of those guys haven't been involved well they might have been sort

4:31 of nominally involved in June when they were playing for SAA against Zimbabwe but but the but but they they haven't been involved properly with the box like the guys who were in the RGR series so I think that Rassie almost had no choice

4:43 choice but to go with the strongest team for this game. Um because he needs some he needs a team that's sort of used to the systems that can just sort of um switch on again from what they left off in in the RGR series. So in that sense

4:58 there's there's not a heck of a lot to talk about in the team because he he has gone with the strongest uh strongest team. Back in the 1980s if we were speculating on who was going to win the Comrades you were wasting your time. It

5:10 was always going to be Bruce Ford. I know Bob Damont pushed him a few times and Bruce Paige, but we always knew he was going to win in the end. And in this particular instance, we sort of know who the the Spring Bach the Spring best team

5:22 is. So, it's it's it's almost hard to to to argue against it. I just would be interested though to see where Rassie's going forward because I'm not sure it's as clearcut as I'm going to choose this team and then choose them for every

5:33 game. I think he wants to get those guys into his structures before he picks them. I mean to suddenly throw Yain Ahmed into a game against Italy this week when he's only really been training with the Stormers and before that the

5:45 junior box in the last few months um would be a little bit unfair on the guy. Um on Salmaan Moerat I sort of feel like let's cut to the chase. It sort of feels to me like it's Salmaan Moerat's lot last last chance in a way. Um because

6:00 remember he was left I mean Rassie does rate him. He's chosen him as he's chosen him as as his captain in the past, but he left him out of the rugby championship side last year. I'm talking about the Castle Logger Rugby

6:12 Championship, New Zealand, Australia, and Argentina. Um, we won that without him. Um, and he was fit at the time. So, so, so it it was as if he was dropped at at that particular time. So, now I feel like he's sort of been given another

6:28 chance and he's sort of coming back. The most important thing for Salmaan Morat, look, I don't I don't really doubt his abilities. The most important thing for Salmaan Moerat is just to show that he can stay on the field for some

6:41 consecutive games and not get injured. That really is the bottom line. I mean, the guy just we we judge him on on very little momentum because he he doesn't if you don't play consecutive games, you you don't ever really pick up momentum.

6:56 Uh and and it's momentum that brings you form. So, so, so that's where I sort of feel sorry for him. I think the most important thing is if we see him play a couple of consecutive games, then we can judge uh um Salmaan Mar.

7:11 Yeah, just to to follow to follow up on what Gav says there. I think uh I think Rassie has got a very clear idea of who his number five lock sort of middle of the line art and caller and uh and who his his sort of baky's bha um

7:27 hitter of Rex and cleaner of Rex big tackler uh is and Salmaan Moerat definitely falls into that second category the Buckyy's Bhutter one. I know people [clears throat] say they don't see a hell of a lot of him on the

7:41 field and the very re the reason for that is he does a tremendous amount of the of the dirty work the stuff the sort of malls the mall setting up the the the defensive efforts against a mole um his his tackle stats are always extremely

7:58 high and um and his rack cleaning is always um you know vicious I mean it's vigorous so much so that he's been concussed uh you know, many times. So, he is a he is a guy who is extremely physical and um sometimes his body lets

8:15 him down because he's he's not he hasn't got that extra 10 kilograms that a guy 10 15 kgs that a guy like a Quisbas Visa has or perhaps a Bakis BH or he has to really work hard. He's an athletic lock but he plays like they do. So, um I mean

8:33 the point about this having his last chance, I think, um Rassie wants to give him another opportunity. [clears throat] Excuse me. And um and I think uh that it it it balances his pack nicely. You know, he that he's he's the type of

8:47 front of the line out lock that works well with a guy like Nokia. So, um uh whether he carries on after this tour will depend, I think, a lot on his physical capabilities. He's def he's had lots of concussions and he's had lots of

9:04 injuries. You know, his bones haven't stood up to a lot of the of the of the force that he that he and the impacts that he takes on the rugby field. So, I wish him well. He's a Listen, I've I've spent quite a lot of time with this guy.

9:16 He is an absolutely wonderful human being. He's a brilliant captain. He's a guy who the the players look up to. He's got a wonderful wonderful personality and uh and I think that stands for a lot as well. you know that if you you know

9:30 you go through this team you're getting really good guys being selected for the Springboks guys who don't cause trouble guys who commit uh themselves uh to the team effort as opposed to individual brilliance and stuff and uh and I think

9:43 that's pretty much a large part of the success of the Springboks over the last five six years it's interesting what you both say about the selection I just want to come back to something we've discussed for before

9:56 as well and ask you guys about this because the one thought I had this morning while having was was was we we saw in the the Rugby's greatest rivalry that um Rassie's gone back to a team that's predominantly

10:07 Japanese-based. Um you know it's it's the double World Cup winners, the guys who play in Japan, they brought him the success against the All Blacks again. We back at that side again. I suppose the question comes that is that going to be

10:21 enough in a year's time at the World Cup or when do we go over the hill or we talked about this before as well. It's just interesting to see where that stands in terms of the rest the depth as well. I just wanted to get you guys Gav,

10:32 you can maybe go first on this one. >> Well, yeah, if I'm answering your question correctly, I do think that he's going to give guys opportunities again this I I can't believe that he's going to go through this tour without testing

10:43 his depth in some when I say testing his depth because I mean that's actually not I mean, you know, giving giving guys opportunities and building up I think as John Dobson would say game capacity of of certain players. I I would be very

10:57 surprised if he went through with the with the same team. I think that this team, as I said earlier, is selected because he needs the guys who played together often because he doesn't have much time to work with them. Although,

11:08 it's interesting, you know, it's very different to to Nick's day and um you know, mo most springball coaches day. It sounds like the Springbot management were over there already and that the players went over and joined them

11:19 because reading Rassie's quote last night, it's it it it's it seems that um the Japanese players have been in Italy for a week working there, which is is very different to where we all sort of media and spring boss got into a plane

11:33 and flew flew to the UK like on on Nick's first tour in October or early November of of of 1997. Um, so yeah, so it's it's a very different world, but I I I'm expecting Rassie to to to to I don't think he would choose those guys

11:49 to go on tour without giving them some opportunity somewhere. So because it is very important that he keeps doing that because, you know, as you say, I mean, just just looking at Bongi coming to the Stormers last week, I remember looking

12:03 at the at at the press release that the Stormers sent out and I was quite shocked that he was 35. fin thing he 35 for a rugby player for a tight forward. It just sounds it just sounds a bit sort of you know

12:17 a bit fanciful in a way. So so you know he's going to be 36 next year. I mean we're talking about guys not in the squad but there's other guys that are similar ages and and you do just suddenly hit that point where you've

12:29 reached the peak and then you fall down the other side. Even if you've got an incredibly uh strong work ethic and or a conditioning freak like somebody like like like Jesse Krel, you never know when your pace might go or something if

12:41 you if you're in one of those positions. So yes, I mean Rassie has to if I'm answering your question, Brenden, I think Rassie needs to need needs to still be mindful of that and I'm pretty sure he is.

12:52 >> Yeah, Nick, your your thoughts. Gavin did answer it more or less, but your thoughts on that as well? Because I I suppose that's the worry is that you we get to a World Cup and we've seen other sides do it and then you that one that

13:03 10% not there where you should be. Uh and and you haven't given the other guys enough test. So I'm not sure maybe I'm overthinking it a bit but uh yeah just the >> well we must never we must never move

13:14 away never never move away from how selection has changed uh you know the way in which they analyze the games the way in which they take stats the battle stats that Rassie's always looking for you know trying to find the dog in the

13:26 player the guy who fights the hardest who keeps going I mean there are certain criteria that uh that Rassie and his coaches have on every individual player and I mean the professionalism is unbelievable. believable. I mean,

13:38 honestly, in my day, we say we're going back and we all jumped on a plane. I mean, it was literally I just a gut feel. I think this is the best team that could be, you know, we didn't have the stats. We didn't have the uh um intel

13:50 that these guys have at the moment. And uh and so and so often you you could make a mistake, you know, and uh and but but now, you know, the reason why Paul Devils is there, you know, you know, he's not an imposing figure, but he's

14:04 but his stats are right up there, you know, with Quaka Smiths. And how did Quaka Smith get there? Because his stats were the best in the world. So when we're talking about these old guys and and will they make the World Cup and do

14:16 you think 36 is old or not? Just remember that for us age is completely irrelevant. What matters to Rassie is what does the player do on the field? What is his performance on the field? Is he matching the best in the world in his

14:30 position or isn't he? And if he's not, I guarantee you that the young guy is going to take over from the old guy because the moment you have five or six or seven of those old guys all not hitting their stats, you know, then

14:43 we're not going to get the results that we're used to. And so we're going to find new players coming through and it's going to be as um as Rassie said, I think or or maybe I was just thinking about it's going to be the player dropping

14:56 himself as opposed to, you know, he's going to be able to be shown the statistics. He's going to be able to be shown the fact that what he was like in 2023 and now 2027, he just hasn't got it, you know, and uh and so and so that

15:10 it's going to be it's going to be done on a very objective basis. And so when we talk about age, it's all about performance. It's not about how old you are. You could get a guy like Ahmed who at 20 could perform as well as any

15:24 flyoff in the northern hemisphere if if he's, you know, properly connected in the team and understands the way the team wants to play. And you can get a guy like Jesse Kriel at 37 perhaps at 2027 or Damian Dalander or Sia Khesi

15:39 who's going to be better than anyone else in in their position with regard to the stats and with regard to the the the the the sort of dog that that uh that Rassie's looking for and with regard to the leadership potent aspects that the

15:54 guys bring as well. You know, you can't chuck out the experience. You know, the fact that guys have been there and done it. We saw that in the rugby uh in um greatest rivalry um series as well. You know, how how how the old older guys

16:08 really stood up and played outstandingly well. So, let's not worry about age. Let's just worry about performance. Nick, if I if I might just ask though, um and again, I go I go back to your career. I remember you saying at some

16:21 point it was after you were Springball coach, but you said like in retrospect, and at that time I think it was true. It's no longer true. I I don't think and I agreed with you completely at the time you said you can actually have six eight

16:33 eight weeks to prepare for a world cup this whole thing of four years preparation in the 1990s might have might have actually been true >> because um cuz that was uh you know the game wasn't as the sport wasn't as sc as

16:47 as scientific back then. Uh you took your guys to Plantenber Bay and what a great couple of weeks that was certainly from a journalist point of view. um you take them to places like that and and get them together there. But but the the

17:00 whole aspect of getting a team to gel together now like you know we we we we talk about those guys. So so let's say Eban I mean I'm just I don't think he's he's one guy I don't think will fall off the

17:14 cliff but let's just say he he did fall off the cliff next year and Sman didn't come through now. Um and um for some reason um Yurassi's ignoring KBA's visa which which I don't understand I thought he was good in the test that he played

17:30 but like let's say let's say Iran's not there and then there needs to be a new lock combination sort of formed. I mean I mean Arus Neon will probably come back. We're forgetting about him but but um so maybe maybe Lock's the wrong wrong

17:44 example but you know where you know where I'm going. How long does it take for a coach to to to sort of gel that cohesiveness, not just in the team as a whole, but specific combinations? I'm talking about a midfield pairing. Say

17:58 Jesse and um >> and Damian aren't there next year? >> Yeah. >> Well, it's it's a a very good question. I think you you know game time being on the field makes a massive difference.

18:08 you know, the confidence you get in the guy next to you, the scrum off and fly off um combination, the two centers, outside center calling the defense, you know, when to when to go man on, when to when to uh push up and out, um is is

18:22 absolutely vital. Your back three and the way that they work together to on defense and on attack, you know, uh um you called a lot by we've seen Billy Laru whose um whose contribution has been far beyond his own performance.

18:36 it's been through uh the communication that he gives. So I think um the detail that these players get when they go to alignment camps is is is so is is so um in not intense but so accurate that um that a player will

18:54 follow. So I've heard you know the fly will go in there a new fly will come in like Libok and he'll say uh you know it's been absolutely fantastic. I've had Paul talk to me about what we do in these situations, what we do in those.

19:06 So the you're getting pass you're getting information passed down by the player in possession as well as by the coaching staff. So I think I think listen if we lose if we lose um you know Ibanza, Sal Morat and Eman well there

19:20 not many countries in the world that can bounce back from those three in number four you know losing all three. I hope that doesn't happen. But we do still have other guys who can step up. You know, we have we have, you know, a guy

19:32 like Jean Clay, for example, is has has not been picked for this trip. Um, you know, there's a young guy, this R who's not playing for the Sharks at the moment, but I really consider that he's a he's a potential spring. He's a very

19:46 big powerful young man. Um the two guys I mean if the two guys playing for uh the Bulls I mean they're not insignificant uh locks they're decent rugby players. Put one of those in the front of the lineup for the Springboks.

20:00 He won't let you down you know. So to answer your question I would say it would take a couple of alignment camps in a tour like this you know. So say you are say you're a guy like um Marcus Müller Riley Norton. Riley Norton will

20:13 already be in the system because he's first of all a very intelligent uh individual, but but secondly, he's been at the at the at the alignment camps. He's been part of the preparation for the box. He's watched the way that a guy

20:27 like Ibanz has prepared himself and and now he's going on a tour with them. And uh you know I I think you know already he'll be um you know he'll be able to to to play a game for the Springboks against someone like England or against

20:41 someone like France or against someone like Ireland and be incredibly competitive. So it's all about the quality of the information you get which is given to them by the coaches and by their fellow players. And what I really

20:52 love about the springbox setup is the is uh the culture of a lack of um um selfishness. you know the the facts the the player the players are encouraged to pass information on they're not encouraged to say okay I've got these

21:08 talents and and stuff you I'm not going to I'm not going to share you know my knowledge with you guys it's it's to pass so that everyone benefits the whole team benefits and if the whole team benefits everyone benefits the players

21:20 the coaches and us supporters you watch uh watch them play uh you know so that would be my answer >> yeah I just to add to Nick I I I just gave just people there might not know or might not have seen it, but it just

21:35 reminded me of um something we saw during the Rugby's greatest rivalry was at one or two press conferences s Khesi talking about how excited he was to work with Cameron Hanek and how he he actually loved passing information down

21:48 to him and I mean I've actually asked Cameron about it as well um and he and he was just as you excited having the box captain give him that sort of attention I suppose as a young player in the squad.

22:00 and and that and and and and it it goes further where where I mean you remember SA used was saying at at the press conference when he saw Cameron doing so well against Argentina that excites him on the side of the field seeing that

22:11 happen. So that that just shows you that thing. And then the other thing I just wanted to ask I'd say about what we said a bit earlier about the performance of the guys. Um just reminded me as well that Rossy does say often at the press

22:23 conferences that he measures the guys in the training sessions which are quite intense and if SIA can he always uses SI as an example. If CIA can keep up with the Paul Devidia's uh sort of energy and all that sort of stuff then he knows

22:35 he'll be all right. I want to ask um Nick, I want maybe well both of you guys about Italy because >> uh they they're interesting. Nick, you've coached them. You know the mindset of those players as well, but I

22:46 I I was reading this morning about just how many injuries they got. They got 15 injuries. There's no BS or Milanch in the centers. They they they don't have a line on the wing. They still can put together a pretty decent team because

22:58 they've got a lot more depth than probably when you were there. Uh but uh just their thoughts. So I mean with 15 guys out and box picking this team just your thoughts on what they have to do. >> Well they [clears throat] they they're

23:11 facing a very very strong Springboks side and they've only got a handful of worldass players. So of which Menchello and BS I would put there as as some of the top a pair of the best centers in the northern hemisphere. Menchello may

23:25 be the best center in the northern hemisphere at the moment. So, you know, for a side like Italy to lose uh your two sort of um uh you know, real sort of Kriel daler for them, you know, are those two centers. They've been they've

23:39 been rock solid for Italy through all the Six Nations games. And uh and [clears throat] listen, they were disappointing on tour. They didn't play well on tour. they that you know their captain himself who's who's also injured

23:51 by by the way um is said that he thought they only played 40 minutes out of out of three games of decent rugby and that was the first half um against New Zealand. So so you know they're a team that's up against his backs against the

24:06 wall. I can't see them doing you know doing well against the Springboks. I really can't. I think I think if you lose your [clears throat] key lineup for Zambon now as well Zambonin he's that sort of uh 6'7 6'8 basketball style lock

24:21 they've got who's Victor Matfield and you know whenever they're in trouble they go to four or five man line outs and that guy wins the ball now he's also injured and and a number of their players because they've played well in

24:31 the six nations have been have got contracts in France and the one thing about the French which I've also coached in is it's a marathon that competition and you pay every weekend and your president wants to get full value out of

24:46 what he's paying you. So you can't say I'm, you know, we we've got a November test coming up, Mr. President. Do you mind if I rest this weekend? Not at all. You go out on the field and you're playing po at 7:00 at night in the rain

24:58 away and um if you survive that, you know, then you can go back and and and join your Italian compatriots. So it's it's going to be tough for them. It really is. and this whole tournament is going to be tough for them because um as

25:10 I've said you if you're losing four or five of your key players uh it's very difficult for you. I will say this though that uh that um Gonzalo Casada has spread the number of players he's he's tried to on the couple of tours

25:25 he's gone down south and also in in in in June July this June July he's he's tried to increase the number of players who've had experience of playing test match rugby for Italy and um and and you know he's going to have to continue

25:38 doing that you know but obviously he hasn't got the pool to draw from that South Africa does >> with that in mind just Do do you expect the box to try and pull up rack up a big score and maybe throw throw a bit of

25:52 caution to the wind to because there's now one eye on this on the bonus points and the points difference and that and probably having one eye later with Scotland New Zealand as well. >> Yeah, look, I'm going to wait and see

26:04 how how how aggressively Rassie chases the the bonus points and everything. But um just just on Italy, we we do have a bit of recent history of them being under strength and that was at Loftus last year. I think it was the first test

26:15 of beer, wasn't it? Uh at last Yeah, it was the first test. We played them in the We played the Barbarians, of course, a week or two before that, but uh that that doesn't constitute a test [clears throat] match. So, it was the

26:25 first test match of last year. South Africa dominated in the early stages. I think they were well ahead at Halime. And then in the second half, they gave us that that hell of a fright, remember? And it was I think it was a mall try or

26:37 something that they scored and and that was a wakeup call. And that led to quite a spiky sort of atmosphere the following week in Port Elizabeth or in Quebec when um Rassie started off the game. Remember that um that that ru where the ball

26:52 Yeah. They they they start they he wanted to start the game off with the scrum if I remember there were a couple of >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To to start that to make to make that sort of physical

27:01 statement. So So I I think that there is a bit of respect between South Africa and Italy given that kind of history. And remember also, I don't know what you talk about like future history. Remember that this is probably the last time I'm

27:13 I'm right in saying that um that South Africa will be playing Italy before they play them in the World Cup next year. We are due to meet them in the in the pool phases next year. So So I think there's that that little bit of extra

27:25 significance as well. So I think that um >> I I what am I trying to say? What what I'm trying to say is that um I think that there's that there's respect that there will be uh that the box will be shot because I think that they respect

27:39 Italy. Um you mentioned earlier that the one good half in the in the recent home uh sort of southern hemisphere league of the rugby of the nation's championship was against New Zealand. It was actually a very good half that and I would love

27:55 to have known how Italy might have carried on were not for some quite I thought dubious line out calls and their coach their coach got into trouble afterwards for criticizing the referee and I and I thought he was right to do

28:07 so. I remember thinking that New Zealand looked quite vulnerable in that first half. So if it and and and you know sometimes injuries actually are helpful particularly at this time of year. I mean, all the coaches are contractually

28:20 bound to talk up the nation's championship, and yes, they're chasing it, but but it might actually be better for I mean, it might be better for us now that we don't have there. I mean, what what what more do we need to know

28:31 about? So, now we've got an opportunity to look at that number four lock position. um and Italy and Argentina I think this this loss cuz I haven't seen too much of Argentina um except for that game they played against us where they

28:44 where they really pushed us with supposedly also a second string team by the way um they've also because they haven't used a lot of their top players during during the Southern Hemisphere winter um

28:57 they've also probably in a good place now in terms of the World Cup because of the situations I mean it's not injuries in their case it's it's the it's the calendar and all that the situation that that that forces you to sort of build

29:10 depth because you have to uh feel different players. So look and and I think we we also respect Italy although not so much at the moment because they okay they did beat Beniton did but did beat Edinburgh this last weekend but

29:23 those two teams >> sorry >> without their Scottish players. >> Yeah. >> Okay. I thought you going to say Benitin without their Scottish players. Um,

29:35 yeah. No, no, no, >> that would be funny. >> Um, but we do have we we do have we do have quite a respect. We got we do have a little bit of respect in this country now for Italian rugby because

29:44 occasionally we've seen those clubs sort of punch above their weight and and and and push South African teams. Not often, but it does happen occasionally. So, yeah. No, I think I think the spring boss will have have respect for Italy.

29:56 The the only the I think we we've there's not too much we can still ask. I just want one last question about this test. Um it's going to be the first test that we're going to see young Hendrick Wessels be the proper backup hooker. Uh

30:08 and now Rassie also did say in the press conference last night um that Johan Kro has done nothing wrong. They know exactly what they can get out of him and he's a great team man but they want to see what Mariff and Stalin can do as the

30:19 extra guy. uh which is which is an interesting comment but just your thoughts Nick on that young Wessels I I he can always go back to prop but I think he's probably going to start moving into that second hooker role a

30:31 lot more permanently now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Listen I I think any hooker in the world um would love to uh you know start or or come onto the field uh with Wilco Low as your tight partner. You know Wil

30:47 is comfortably the best tight in the world. I mean comfortably best tight head in South Africa which means he's the best tight head in the world and if you if you in the scrum you know I mean in in general play one could one has got

31:00 a good case to say that Thomas Dtoid gets around the field more and is more damaging but in terms of winning scrum penalties and and the power that that guy brings to your scrum I mean Yaneric Wessels is not going to battle in the

31:13 scrums when when Wilo comes on to his right and remember that that was the bull's front row last year I mean if you If Stenump and Yan Hendendrick Wessels on occasion when Kobala didn't play and Wilo were were the front row that won

31:27 lots of penalties last year and it was one thing that Akaman was very uh very concerned about when you lose a player of that impact. How was his season going to develop because you you end up by not winning the scrum penalties that you're

31:38 used to. So um I I think Dan Henrik is going to is going to be an outstanding hooker. I really do. I think his general ball play is good. He's very quick around the park. He makes tackles, carries well, and I and I think if you

31:52 start your game against Italy, you know, start your your career. He doesn't start at a hooker, but he's going to continue his career now as the as the replacement hooker, you know, maybe after 55 minutes when uh you know, when or or 50 minutes

32:07 when maybe hopefully we'll be up by 15 points. I mean, that's a really nice way to start your your career. I think he's going to do a great job for us. Gave, do you want to add anything uh to that?

32:20 >> No, not really. Um I just think Yeah. Yeah. Great. Well, >> we can move on then. You don't have to. [laughter] >> Just a final thing. Just a just a final thing about Italy though. Remember that

32:33 Rassie after those two tests that Gav reminded me of now, uh he said that he he thought that in the six nations Italy would finish in the top three. Didn't he say that? And uh he was so >> Yeah.

32:45 >> Yeah. Exactly. And he was so respectful of their scrum and their and their driving mall and the way their their attacking game and their kicking game. I mean, they're a very very well coached team, Italy. They really are. It's just

32:59 uh it's just manpower. Um that's that's the problem. But but uh it's a well coached, wellorganized side and they respect South Africa. I would say that Italians probably have a a closer uh connection with South Africa than they

33:13 do with New Zealand in the way they want to play the game. You know, they they don't want to play uh a sort of New Zealand um ball in hand uh you know, move away from set pieces type of game. They want they want their set pieces to

33:26 be good. They want their driving ball to be good. They they have a good kicking game. They're very good under the high ball. They've got a great defense. I mean, it's just they don't have the players that we have. that that's that's

33:37 the one thing that they that they will battle with on Sat on yeah on Saturday. >> I suppose the I suppose their connection with South African rugby goes back to when Nars was playing for Ravigo and Christian Stewart and Josky was played

33:52 play played there for quite a long time. Steve Atherton I remember being there. So yeah it it probably comes with that. But I was actually going to ask you another question, Nick, just as a as a former Italian coach or a coach of the

34:03 Italian team, cuz I don't think that saying that you're Italian would would be correct. Um, as a former coach of Italy, um, is there a difference because they play all these six nations at Rome and in Rome and I remember going to Rome

34:16 in 95. They played at the Olympic Stadium and they played against the box and there was an incredible atmosphere there and then later on uh I think your first game in 97 was in Bologna. um we sort of started going elsewhere, but I

34:29 always [laughter] remember that Rome game as the standout when it came to sort of like sort of real sort of atmosphere. Is there a sort of difference to the Italian psyche or the Italian approach when they because they

34:43 never play the box in Rome? I don't know when last we were in Rome. I mean, me if I'm wrong, might have played in Rome recently, but I I can't remember that. They always seem to be in Turin or in Florence or or or somewhere like that.

34:55 Um is there is there a difference? I mean I mean they they do play all I am correct arto when I say they do they do play all their six nations game at and it and it feels like that's their headquarters.

35:06 >> Yeah. No it is that's you're 100% correct. They have a they have a a principle that their November test they'll take two different uh stadiums and different geographical areas of uh to to grow the game of rugby in Italy

35:18 and um and then their six nations is established in the Olympic stadium. So and that's the six nations home games that they have. So this is in Tin and um you know that's that's not a great rugby area. You know you won't find any first

35:32 division sides in Tin. Um but but they are they have a a big love of rugby in the north of well right through Italy certain aspects of I mean soccer is just way way ahead of anything else but but the rugby population will travel from

35:50 Palmer from Bologna from Traviso from Veneton um from Venice h and they'll go and watch this game I mean it's the world champions playing against their team and they'll want to they'll really want to

36:03 support it. I played I coached the the the the Italians Italian national team against New Zealand at um at in Milan in Milan in the um uh in their soccer stadium which has 80,000 people and it was absolutely jam-packed. You couldn't

36:20 get another seat and a lot of the people there had never watched a game of rugby in their lives. I think they just came to watch the hucker, you know, to see the All Blacks [laughter] hucker. But uh but it was it was a brilliant brilliant

36:31 game for for [clears throat] um ambiance and uh happiness and joyfulness and stuff. So you do get uh you do get um a good support wherever you go in Italy and and uh I I love the traveling around and playing in different parts um and

36:47 and and and different stadia. You know, it was really good fun. >> Just have a quick look at the other games. Ireland Argentina, just get a prediction from you guys for that one. Gav, you said there's going to be an

36:58 interesting one. You can go first on that. >> What? Ireland against >> Argentina. >> Sorry. Oh, sorry. I thought you were talking about this. I was I was um

37:06 Ireland against a island Ireland. Ireland Ireland will probably win. Um don't ask me what score, but I mean they're playing at home. They'll probably win it. It might be a close game, but um Ar I haven't really

37:18 followed Argentina got their top players back now. I mean, are they now starting >> are they starting that last sort of push towards the World Cup from from now? Uh, then then it could be an interesting game. But I mean, obviously I I think at

37:31 home at the Aviva Stadium, Ireland Ireland should win. >> Nick, you want to come in on that? Do you agree? >> Well, just give me another one because that's Gavin's given his. So you

37:42 >> Yeah, sure. Give me another one. >> Scotland, New Zealand. >> Yeah, that's also that's going to be an exciting game. I think uh I really do. I think the two teams playing not dissimilar styles of rugby and um and

37:54 and Scotland probably probably as tough as England uh as a as an opponent for the All Blacks. Although in my opinion they've got easier games than we have. Scotland, England and Wales probably easier. So I I would say New Zealand are

38:09 going to win it because they're playing a really good brand of rugby and extremely confident at the moment. Um but uh but I think Scotland uh you know the big the interesting thing is that the northern hemisphere are fighting as

38:22 hard as they possibly can for first place you know and um it's only France marginally ahead from Ireland and Scotland. So and England they're all in it. So those four teams have to you know they're going to be playing their hearts

38:34 out in this November series to try and get to the finals of the of the competition in the last weekend. They've never the history the history is against Scotland and I'm one of those people that that does believe that genuine

38:46 history. Um when I say history is like over a long period of time does mean something. I'm I'm not one of those people who sort of like thinks well the Sharks won last year and Durban twice against the storm is therefore history's

38:56 on their side. I'm sorry a year is the very is too small a sample size. But when it comes to a long sample size Scotland don't win don't don't win against New Zealand. Um, and I'll take you back to the Bruce Ford Ford eyes

39:10 thing I mentioned earlier in the 1980s. We always knew who's going to win the comrades. Bruce Paige and and and Bob Damott threatened him, but we always knew who's going to win those races. It'll be like that again. Uh, Scotland

39:21 will challenge for a while and we'll sort of think, geez, this is a good game, but in the end, New Zealand will win. >> Okay. Well, we we don't have to spend much time on Wales, Japan, other than to

39:30 say it's probably going to be one of the wooden spoon games. Uh the only interesting one about the other one on Saturday night is France Fiji which uh Fiji has a very new coach in Jake White. Um anything significant there or I think

39:43 the French will probably run away with it still. >> Well the last time they played the la yeah last time they played I think the score was something like 3221 or something like that. So the French the

39:54 French can uh can sort of they have the ability to go on overconfident and think that it's going to come easily you know not unlike the Stormers sometimes when they play you know they go on having won the game already without having put in

40:08 the hard yards you know so uh so they're teams that don't do it and I think Springboks are like that we don't play like that but but the French definitely do and against a side like uh Fiji if um if Jake White and Um and has

40:24 might have gone over to help him as well. I'm not sure if also involved with the Fiji, but if he is then their line arts, their line art mall is going to be vastly improved. Um and and if he gets their scrum in a well, I don't think

40:37 that France has got a damaging scrum. So I don't think they're going to battle in the scrum. And Fiji, if they get 50% of the ball, they are, you know, they are very very difficult to stop. So I think I don't think it's going to be a

40:51 40pointer to the French. I think it's going to be again so French France will win but I think it's going to be something like 3520 something like that. >> Gav I'll give you the last one. England Australia.

41:04 >> I thought you going to ask me about Fiji. I was going to say the thing about Fiji is that they always start slowly because they haven't been together for a long time. So So that so that might that might count against play Japan twice.

41:15 Play Japan twice. >> I have Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. Um, sorry. What? Australia? [laughter] I'm I'm so sort of springball focused at the moment. Australia are playing who?

41:26 >> England. England. [laughter] >> I actually knew that. I read the English media every day. I knew that. I mean, [laughter] >> um, no, it's not Twink. It's called the Alliance Stadium or some like that.

41:45 Um I think that um I I I think that it's it might be a difficult one to call Brennan just because England sort of don't really know who they are half the time to be honest. I mean it's just like you know they are we going to play this

41:58 way? Are we going to play are we going to play this guy in this position and and bank on him. Um, so so that to me gives gives Australia a chance, but I just think that the England forward should be too good for Australia and and

42:10 um yeah, look, I mean I I think that England are going to win, but I'm not writing off the Aussies. That's what I'm saying. Just because England can England can take out that 12 ball shotgun and sort of and point it at their at their

42:23 own feet very easily. And um if that happens, then Australia have a chance. I think they they shocked England two years ago, didn't they? I remember it was it was ahead of the line series the following year. Uh Australia were given

42:36 no chance and they won. So so they can do it. They were outplayed by New Zealand but that was New Zealand. I do think that at the moment the box and New Zealand and probably France are a little bit ahead of the rest of the world at

42:49 the moment. That will be my final word. >> Yeah, we'll leave it there. Uh this is Talking Boks proudly driven by Toyota. It's been a fun morning. It's going to be a fun day on Saturday. We'll be back after the game on Sunday uh having a

43:01 review of the spring team and then also next week looking ahead at the French test. Guys, thanks. Enjoy the day. I don't think it's going to get much better than this podcast at this moment. But yeah, uh we'll speak to you guys

43:11 soon. Cheers. >> When there's tough to be done, you keep moving, driving endless hours with just your thoughts to keep you company. And along that journey, you'll have a silent partner.

43:27 One [music] that gets to work without complaining or hesitating because when there's tough to be done. >> Is it a Bucky? >> No, it's a Hilux. >> There's the new [music] generation Hilux

43:44 >> Talking Boks. Proudly driven by Toyota. [music]